Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender Toilets

89 replies

Clonakiltylil · 25/05/2016 22:17

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3609515/Transgender-woman-wins-landmark-discrimination-case-forcing-ferry-firm-remove-words-ladies-gents-toilets-told-use-disabled-loo.html

And so it begins: litigation regarding toilets.

Here's part of it:

A transgender woman has won a landmark discrimination case forcing a ferry company to remove the words 'ladies' and 'gentlemen' from its toilets.

Condor Ferries has become the first firm to change the gender specific signs on the doors after Erin Bisson proved she was 'humiliated' at being told to use the disabled toilets.

Ms Bisson, formerly known as Robert until she identified herself as a woman, complained to the Jersey Employment and Discrimination Tribunal that she had been discriminated against after the operator banned her from using the 'ladies'.

She argued the use of words rather than symbols on toilets amounted to indirect discrimination.

OP posts:
OddBoots · 30/05/2016 17:38

GipsyDanger - the people posting here are not gut reaction transphobics, they are people who have thought about and discussed this at length.

When you let in transwomen and you allow people to self identify then you are legally allowing entry to the people who self select to enter the women's toilets.

Many of those people will be doing so to validate their own self gender identity and while some would question the doing so and their presence may make women feel uncomfortable they are mostly harmless. The other group of people who would self select to enter are those who are predatory - there have been countless cases of these people behaving in harmful ways towards women.

Men may currently enter the women's toilet for reasons of harm without claiming any female identity but at least legal protections allow for them to be questioned and removed but if the ability to question and remove is withdrawn then two separate toilets sets becomes pointless.

GipsyDanger · 30/05/2016 17:51

Fair enough but this just doesn't sit well with me. Wasn't it not too long ago people of colour weren't allowed to use the same bathrooms? Discrimination is discrimination

Dervel · 30/05/2016 17:52

I predict generations into the future will look back on us now and our enabling of people with psychological/psychiatric issues and view it with horror.

The science is not in on the subject, yet public opinion is yet again sallying forth blindly. Which of course political policy will follow.

Yes I get the arguments, no I do not agree with everything the trans community comes out with, and no that doesn't make me transphobic.

GipsyDanger · 30/05/2016 18:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EmpressOfTheSevenOceans · 30/05/2016 18:36

Racism? I've heard arguments about trans women being "just another group like black women or disabled women".

That appears to imply that only white, able-bodied women are bothered about the idea of free access to women's toilets. Somehow that's hard to believe.

almondpudding · 30/05/2016 18:46

Okay, I'm confused. I thought we were talking about Jersey not New Jersey in the U.S.

LadyStarkOfWinterfell · 30/05/2016 18:54

Black people were kept out of white people toilets because it was believed they had specific diseases and would pass them on to clean white people. It was disgusting racism based on erroneous beliefs about the superiority of white people.

Males and females have always had separate public toilets and washing facilities, ever since Female toilets were introduced (before that women wouldn't use toilets when out). Excluding males from female toilets is not because we believe males are worse or more diseased than females, but because intimate, personal acts like toileting and washing have always been sex segregated. Unless you wish to argue for unisex facilities everywhere, including swimming pools and hospital wings then there is no logic to the argument that males should be allowed to use female only facilities because of a subjective, untestable and entirely specious sense of gender identity that makes a male feel like they are actually a female.

VestalVirgin · 30/05/2016 19:12

Fair enough but this just doesn't sit well with me. Wasn't it not too long ago people of colour weren't allowed to use the same bathrooms? Discrimination is discrimination

Have you been of this opinion back when women and men used separate toilets? Because I never heard of anyone opposing this separation.

I am a feminist, and if I had felt that the separate bathrooms for women and men were discriminatory, rest assured, I would have said something against it.
As stated initially, I have zero desire to see men with their penises in hand. I also have forgotten to lock the cubicle door, and you bet I was glad it was a woman who accidentally opened the door while I was peeing!

singingsixpence82 · 30/05/2016 20:04

I am conflicted here because I don't personally care very much who I share a bathroom with but I agree that if you allow people to self identify as women when it comes to toilets you allow them to do so in other situations, some of which are hugely problematic from a feminist point of view. I also think other women and girls have every right to care about who they share a bathroom with.

I am mindful of the report by the British Association of Transgender Health Specialists (or they're called something like that any way) that warns of an ever increasing tide of "pretend transexuals" - predators who assume a female identity for predatory reasons and I always try and bring that up when people try to make out that there are not only no concerns but that there aren't even any grounds for concern.

That said, I have just come across this article which is by a bug bunch of American experts, many who are organisations dealing with sexual abuse and violence. It says there are no safety concerns:

abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assault-domestic-violence-organizations-debunk-bathroom-predator/story?id=38604019

I would tend to agree that if someone is going to assault someone they will do so under any circumstances but what worries me more are the men whose presence itself is an act of aggression. The men who don't present as female but who turn up in women's changing rooms and feel they have a right to be there, and may do so for the purpose of causing discomfort.

0phelia · 30/05/2016 20:51

It's nonsense to compare racial segregation to sex segregation.

No black people were ever demanding to be called white.

Homeriliad · 02/06/2016 10:51

So the general argument on here seems to be that people should use toilets based on the genitalia they had at birth.

So this would mean that post op trans people who now have a vagina should be made to use the men's toilet, and post op people who now have a penis should be made to use the women's toilet, yes?

MrsBruceBogtrotter · 02/06/2016 11:00

Yes.

Homeriliad · 02/06/2016 11:11

And if that post op person with a penis is attracted to women, you would still insist they use the women's toilets?

singingsixpence82 · 02/06/2016 11:29

Homeriliad - there are a range of views on here but from what I've read I'd say the consensus is more along the lines of the following:

Women just want to feel safe. For that reason they don't want transwomen who obviously look like men or are indistinguishable from men in spaces in which they have historically had a fair expectation of sex segregation. They want to be able to object if someone who they believe to be male is in their changing room etc.

When it comes to transmen who are female but are indistinguishable from men opinions differ. Many don't want them in their female only spaces either although some think they belong in the women's toilets/changing.

I'd tend to take a pragmatic view myself. If you're trans and you pass and just want to pee then I'd say using the toilets etc that match your gender identity is probably the best option for everyone. But if you look like Arnold Schwarzeneger and think you're female you really can't expect all women and girls to be cool with that and I think in such cases women and girls should have a right to object.

singingsixpence82 · 02/06/2016 11:32

I think as a society we really need to just spend the money and install individual facilities wherever possible. So changing rooms are no longer communal - everyone or every family is entitled to a lockable booth offering full privacy. Until then we can't make everyone happy and I personally feel there are two sides here who both have legitimate cases.

ChocChocPorridge · 02/06/2016 11:37

Toilets aren't segregated by sexual orientation Homer, but on sex.

It's been working pretty well so far, need to see some pretty good justification to change that.

MrsBruceBogtrotter · 02/06/2016 17:50

Yes, because that person will not have a 'penis' in the true sense of the word, and also because a female who is attracted to other women is not a man, she is a lesbian.

SomeDyke · 02/06/2016 18:24

"And if that post op person with a penis is attracted to women, you would still insist they use the women's toilets?"

What is the purpose of asking this, I wonder? Is this trying to pretend that a transman with a surgical simulacrum of a penis is as much a rape threat as a man? Because if that were really the concern, then a lesbian with a strap-on would be as much of a threat (unless you believe that testosterone or identifying as a man do of themselves make you more likely to be a rapist.).

Although this seems to make the same ole mistake of assuming that the key issue is the actual threat posed by the individual, rather than the perceived threat. So, a non-passing transwoman could be objected to in women-only spaces both on the grounds that they are obviously not female (and we think such spaces should be segregated on the grounds of sex not gender), and on the grounds that allowing obviously male people into the ladies allows non-trans predatory males a free pass. The first is specific to the person involved, the second is general.

"...people should use toilets based on the genitalia they had at birth." That is a pretty weird definition of sex there! Actual sex isn't totally determined by the appearance of the genitalia at birth (as many intersex people know, especially those who suffered unwanted genital surgery as children), just that for most people, the appearance of the genitalia at birth is a reasonable estimator of sex. Of course, the definition has been attempted this way so it can be claimed that changing the appearance of the exterior genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics is changing sex, when it is just cosmetic surgery.

What would an answer that shows respect and consideration for females be? Not pushing your way into the ladies when you are male. If safety in the gents is the issue (which could be because you're a non-passing transwoman, or just a drag queen, or a small-bodied transman, or a transman who needs to change their tampon etc), then until we solve the problem of male violence, a sex-neutral separate cubicle would work.
So, putting tampon bins in the gents would not make transmen safer, since as all us ladies know, you can hear the bins opening! Using the private cubicle, could just be (as some of my gay male friends are) that you are shy of peeing at urinals, or a male who sits to pee for religious or cultural reasons, or just anyone who prefers a little more privacy.

Which seems to me to be a solution that increases general safety at minimal cost, whereas letting all of female sex PLUS those with a female 'gender identity' in obviously decreases it (since it itself destroys the very safety that transwomen claim they are seeking in the ladies!).

Letting anyone who identifies as X enter the preferred loo, that is surely the only suggestion that decreases safety for all concerned --apart from gender-conforming, straight men who would be as safe as they always were! So why would anyone prefer that if safety of us all was actually what mattered?

MyCrispBag · 02/06/2016 20:08

So this would mean that post op trans people who now have a vagina should be made to use the men's toilet

Are they doing vagina transplants now?

thefamilyvonstrop · 03/06/2016 11:05

Apologies if this is already covered - I saw the linked article in David milliband Twitter feed and I thought it might be of interest here.
qz.com/692711/the-radically-simple-way-to-make-female-refugees-safer-from-sexual-assault-decent-bathrooms/

PalmerViolet · 03/06/2016 11:49

Homer, I'm not really sure why you care either way. You're male, this hardly affects you.

Grimarse · 03/06/2016 13:26

Just to kill off a myth that seems to get mentioned in here - you can't see a guy's cock when peeing into a urinal unless you stand next to him and make the effort. So you aren't presented with a row of knobs just by entering the gents.

That said, I have no objection to a trans person of any persuasion using the cludgee whilst I am in there, and I suspect most men feel the same. When you gotta go, you gotta go. I guess a few extremists are using this as a rallying cry for their beliefs. You get them in every political movement, unfortunately.

shins · 03/06/2016 14:17

This is about WOMEN'S SAFETY Grimarse, rtft. Not about men. Why would men care indeed, isn't it nice for you.

0phelia · 03/06/2016 14:31

you can't see a guy's cock when peeing into a urinal

We don't want the stench of urinals in women's loos!

Swipe left for the next trending thread