Man cleared of rape after having sex with a woman who thought he was someone else

[Felascloak]

metro.co.uk/2016/05/12/woman-realised-she-was-having-sex-with-wrong-man-so-accused-him-of-rape-5876504/

I feel really bad for this woman (although I think if I was on the jury I probably would have thought there was a chance he believed he had consent). The headline implies she was unreasonably upset when she found the person having sex with her wasn't who she thought and so "falsely accused" him. Poor woman probably feels totally violated.
Also, what kind of man shags a woman who's gone home with a different guy, when that guy has just left the room for a minute. Ugh. He says he didn't even want to

Gosh you're unpleasant palmer. It was the only one you chose to ask for - and only you asked for it, hence the PM. In addition, it was one more than you offered so don't bother coming back to comment - you're clearly not interested in a reciprocal dialogue and I have nothing to prove to someone so hell bent on making and breaking enemies. You are so catty that I struggle to see how you can be much of benefit to women's welfare if this is how you treat women who disagree with you. Personally, I'm not queuing up for more.

it is a defence if the man reasonably believed she consented

What does that look like? I ask because it seemed earlier than asking for consent was meaningless if the man could be in any doubt whatsoever that she was unable to consent. This seems a wide and vague definition to me - does it apply to tipsy/slightly stoned - or what?

Hand on heart, what is the difference to the onlooker? I'd like to know

I don't have any difficulty in imagining what 2 drunk but enthusiastic people having sex would look like. Possibly because I've been there and possibly because it's not a scenario which gets played out in films and TV.

Equally I have little difficulty in imagining from court reports what the rape of a woman too drunk to consent would look like.

Palmer can you post the link, I would be interested too

"I don't have any difficulty in imagining what 2 drunk but enthusiastic people having sex would look like. Possibly because I've been there and possibly because it's not a scenario which gets played out in films and TV.

Equally I have little difficulty in imagining from court reports what the rape of a woman too drunk to consent would look like."

Well said.

No, I am not unpleasant gone, as evidenced by your posts being deleted rather than mine, and no, I didn't report them, I thought they were quite amusing.

I shall comment though, because it was an interesting study, it just doesn't back up what you were saying.

There really isn't any need to be quite so rude and defensive with me, I am perfectly capable of taking in new information and apologising if I have my facts wrong.

What studies have I claimed to be quoting from?

Felas, do you have access to academic journals? If not, I'll have to email you the link to the PDF, sorry.

What does that look like? I ask because it seemed earlier than asking for consent was meaningless if the man could be in any doubt whatsoever that she was unable to consent. This seems a wide and vague definition to me - does it apply to tipsy/slightly stoned - or what?

Oh for goodness sake. There is no contradiction in what I said and asking for and getting consent potentially being meaningless.

I doubt there was a single situation in my wilder days that any one "asked if I was consenting" The fact I was very actively participating, taking my clothes off, unbottoning his, doing things to him, showed it.

If however I had been drifting towards unconsciousness, unable to undress myself (or him); unable to respond to what was happening, not doing anything to him, then his asking "do you consent" and getting a slurred "yes" could not be relied on.

I don't have any difficulty in imagining what 2 drunk but enthusiastic people having sex would look like. Possibly because I've been there and possibly because it's a scenario which gets played out in films and TV

Bugger - there was a stray "not". I meant it is something you see in films and TV.

Oh come on lass, there are a world of alternatives between those two extremes and you must know it.

Palmer sadly not. Never mind

If you are really academics who are contributing to the body of literature of all of this and you don't engage with this issue in your work, doesn't it concern you that the courts will decide these issues for themselves and you won't have had a say in talking about what consent looks like in concrete terms? It's all very well to say 'Well I never had any bother in recollecting consent or knowing that I was able to give it' but the law is there for the cases about which there are ambiguity.

Something I have noticed is the research from the 80s and 90s focusing on issues such as I have mentioned in the thread becoming very scant as the focus moved to how rape myths and their impact - and then, at least it was my impression - a move back towards these issues, but cautiously, I imagine because it is unpopular for all the reasons my comments have been unpopular.

palmer I have no doubt you will have a different view on the paper - it was described in those terms in 'Violence against girls and women: 12 international perspectives', edited by Janet Sigal and Florence Denmark. Google will bring it up.

how

I thought they were quite amusing.

The kind of comment that makes you unpleasant but not deleted! It hadn't occurred to me that you had reported them. Not sure why I'd care TBH.

Sorry, I posted before I edited something there.

I'm not saying crap lovers are rapists or rapists are just shit at sex. I mean that if you don't want to be a rapist when you are not one of those that gone is creating methods for women to avoid you, be a better lover.

I think gone is lucky not to have any experience of men whose aim is to have sex with women whether they want to or not. The reasons those men want to are varied (don't care about consent & just want to spill their load in a woman not a sock, hatred of women in general, hatred of a woman in particular (not the one who they are penetrating), hatred of that particular woman, a display of dominance...the list goes on). And all of those reasons would require specific avoidance tactics for women.

Just to counteract the suggestions that gone makes to risk assess. How on earth do you do that without being in a state of perpetual fear and a restriction on your day to day business?

I cannot believe that such an oft committed crime has such little profile in terms of educating people out of being offenders. Ffs, methadone availability is all about lowering crime rates. But telling men to respect women & their bodily autonomy is just too difficult.

So anyway, despite that gone no longer wishes to converse with me and for those interested, and I'm sure there's a few...

The name of the study is: An Interplay of Individual Motivations and
Sociocultural Factors Predisposing Men to Acts of
Rape in Kenya.

1. The study was undertaken with a small number of convicted rapists in Kenyan prisons. They were all also awaiting the death penalty for other serious and violent crime, so not really typical of rapists anywhere.

2. The sample size was very small (72), there is little indication of how they formulated the questionnaire or what other questions they used and how any of it was validated.

3. The associations they found were weak and their descriptions of their analysis almost non-existent.

4. 64% of the men had been convicted of raping underage girls, 63% had raped an acquaintance, with only 6% stranger rapes. 51% stated they were either drunk or on drugs when they committed the rape.

5. 6% raped their step-daughters when their wives had annoyed them.

So, according to the study, the best way women can protect themselves against rape is to

Be over the age of consent. (64%)
Not be alone with Protestant men.(55%)
Not be alone with married men.(52%)
Not be alone with someone they know. (94%)
Not be alone with men who have only completed primary school. (94%)
Not be alone with Gikuyu men (when in Kenya) (43%)

However, even the rapists themselves didn't blame their victims and the conclusion of the study had nothing to do with how women can prevent their own rape but about how male attitudes to women are what spur rapists on.

So yeah, interesting, if horrible reading, but hardly helpful.

That I found your deleted comments to me amusing rather than, as you intended nasty, amusing makes me unpleasant gone?

How farcical.

Oh. I thought it was going to be about drinking and ponytails, plus inciting lustful thoughts

You and me both, felas.

I knew I'd tmi'd.

Thinking about it a bit more, I've never been in a continuing situation where I have doubted the enthusiastic participation of my partner. It makes me wonder why. Is it because I am someone who is considerate of consent (I am, btw) or is it that, as a woman, I am less likely to be the instigator of events (perhaps).

No, not a mention, sorry.

The conclusion is this:

Rape is a human rights issue and a public health concern that has devastating effects upon an individual, her family, the community, and the country at large. As evidenced in this study, rape is driven by many factors operating in a range of contexts: individual, social, and cultural. However, at the heart of this crime is gender inequality that has existed for centuries. How deeply a community believes in male superiority and entitlement to sex greatly affects the likelihood of sexual violence taking place, as do the general tolerance of sexual assault in the community and the strength of sanctions, if any, against perpetrators. What came out clearly in this study is that rape in itself, as with other forms of gender-based violence, emanates from the gender-power relations in our society. Be it as it may, it could be concluded that the individual motivational factors and sociocultural factors evidenced in this study do not work in isolation and that they both interact in putting men at a heightened risk of committing rape.

The citation being:

Samuel M., & Simiyu W., (2009) An Interplay of Individual Motivations and Sociocultural Factors Predisposing Men to Acts of Rape in Kenya, International Journal of Sexual Health, 21:3, 208

Yy first. Both my partner and I have always paused if the other seems so much as distracted to check if all ok - seems the right thing to do.

That is really odd - my posts seem really strange because one of my posts didn't actually post (even though I saw it as a post). Shit, it was epic.

In a nutshell: I had sex earlier. It was awesome. Some rapists are shit lovers and that's why they are rapists. Some rapists hate all women. Some rapists hate one woman (not the one they are with). Some rapists hate the one they're with. Some just want a warm body not sock. Others rapists have other reasons. Enthusiastic consent is not ambiguous and is also awesome.

In short, one woman cannot protect herself against all those scenarios.

You are right first that post seems really, really strange .