I am a woman because I say so

[Darrowisred]

Bought Grazia not realising it was a special gender issue.

Paris Lees has three pages of editorial.

Gems include;

'I don't need permission to use the label 'woman', I'm a woman because I say so'.

And

'Womankind is a broad church, and it's time to celebrate our wonderfully diverse congregation'.

And

'When my win (as female comment writer of the year) was announced, it unleashed a barrage of transphobic abuse. 'What a farce, Lees is a man' wrote one'.

Finally

'I love being a woman'.

Aaaargh.

Why can't men who want to wear make up, dresses, high heels or whatever just do that, as a man - that challenges gender stereotypes. And why is a child who wants to do similar branded trans, why can't we accept that a male child can play with a doll or a pink pony or have long hair in braids without having to be declared transgender

This

Lass Paris Lees was on Question Time a few months ago and was pathetic, wittering on about eyelashes as the like. I don't think they mentioned that he is MTT which made me fume that people would be watching thinking a woman was saying such things on QT.

Not that he passes that well ...

He does in photos. Wait til they make live action photoshop a thing though!

Flora, what is MTT please?

Write - male to Trans - ie transwoman (FTT = transman).

Silverbirch - it's already happening. This is Davina Ayres - convicted of raping a 15 year old girl. 'She' has gone to a man's prison which hasn't provoked a single squeak from all the people who were so outraged by the transwoman who headbutted a barman because she passes better.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35253974

At least that report says she's a transwoman. All the reports about Clare Derbyshire murdering her father neglected to mention the fact that she is actually a man. Unless you saw a photo, you wouldn't know

ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/A2F4/production/_88461714_88461712.jpg

These crimes are being recorded as committed by women.

Flora Yes I saw that I think. Is that the one where she was pawing the UKIP type bloke sitting next to her every time she wanted to emphasise her impeccable lefty views? She was awful.

Grayson Perry was fab in that Guardian interview, I thought.

Thanks Lynda, I heard about those cases. The change in crime and health data really concerns me.

When I started reading these trans threads a few months ago, I came from a typical left-wing liberal feminist point of viewpoint, believing that trans people should be able to live their lives, identify as they wished and people should respect their wishes in pronoun choices and so on. However, I was always a little concerned that unhelpful gender 'norms' were being perpetuated by men choosing to dress and present behaviours that they perceived as feminine.

After reading threads and finding out more elsewhere I have shifted my opinion considerably and now feel that women need to stand up and say 'enough is enough, your interpretation of what it is to be a woman is dangerous and unhelpful for women, gender is not something that exists beyond social construction or fashion'. We need to say again and again, 'go and change your own male sex's norms not the biological definition of women.

IMHO trans activists have done much to harm the very people who they are supposed to represent, if they have managed to turn my natural liberalism and live and let live views, so far away from their cause.

write as Lynda said, MTT = male to trans. I used to use female pronouns and "transwomen" out of courtesy. I thought for a long time that we all understood that MTTs are not really women but we were prepared to pretend they were to respect the difficulties they faced and to make some allowances to that pretence to alleviate those difficulties. Over the last few years, in the face of the relentless gaslighting of "transwomen are women, full stop", I decided I can no longer particpate in the pretence. A person born with a penis is not a woman, not a "transwoman" and not a "male to female", no matter what they have done (or not done) with their penis.

If we can get back to that basic fact, I'm happy to discuss how we, as a society, can help people suffering under the emergency situation of being gender non-confirming in a (still) deeply patriarchial society. If we can't get back to that basic point, I will continue to prioritise women and women's issues over men who can't cope with patriarchal gender norms.

Excellent post, Silver.

We need to say again and again, 'go and change your own male sex's norms not the biological definition of women

Yes. If men want to wear dresses, why shouldn't they? But they don't need to call themselves women to do so.

Great post, Silver - agree with every word.

Yes. If men want to wear dresses, why shouldn't they? But they don't need to call themselves women to do so

Yes, when women first started wearing trousers it was seen as shocking, unacceptable and was challenged by society wasn't it?

And women carried on, and people got over it - but those women never said they were wanting to be men because they wanted to wear trousers. They just challenged the accepted fashions of the day because it was more practical to wear that item of clothing!

Why can't men do that for themselves but still be men, women did it the other way round

No it is not

It's is only presenting yourself as a women or man and feeling

I will never have the biological body of a man no matter how many hormones I take or operations I have I will never produce sperm

And I will never pass as a man and be treated by society as a man

reply was to blinky on page one claiming someone is what they identify as

Bit late to debate ...

Paris Lees is a real women because Paris has said so

oh male entitlement telling us women loud and clear we are wrong

Buffy - I take the point about "men wanting to adopt the markers of the inferior gender" being harder to understand.

But.

If it's rooted in men feeling that they are superior to women, how is a man actually wanting to be a woman to the extent of demanding to be legally called a woman, more understandable than a man wanting to be a man who wears a dress?

Flora, thanks, I realised afterwards that was probably it. Great post btw.

Buffy, yes I see your point - so just taking it on a simplistic level of the socially accepted clothes for male/female - women wanting to wear the same as men didn't feel they had to say they were men because it was seen as something to aspire to anyway.

But men wanting to dress in a traditionally feminine way can't say it's something they aspire to, as to be feminine is/was viewed as weaker, so they have to say they are women because their egos can't deal with wanting something that's typically viewed as inferior

I think it's a perfectly understandable view point. Think of it as a Venn diagram.

"Men don't wear dresses"
"Women wear dresses"

No overlap in your Venn diagram

"I , a man, want to wear a dress"
"But men don't wear dresses so I must be a woman"

The concept of men wearing dresses is not one society is comfortable. It's not particularly met enthusiasm even on MN except in relation to small boys wearing princess dresses. It's not even met with particular enthusiasm on FWR. I've seen highly critical posts in the past about transvestite men.

Eddie izzard, has jumped on the transgender bandwagon now though.

He no longer says he's a TV.