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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

I am a woman because I say so

211 replies

Darrowisred · 04/05/2016 18:39

Bought Grazia not realising it was a special gender issue.

Paris Lees has three pages of editorial.

Gems include;

'I don't need permission to use the label 'woman', I'm a woman because I say so'.

And

'Womankind is a broad church, and it's time to celebrate our wonderfully diverse congregation'.

And

'When my win (as female comment writer of the year) was announced, it unleashed a barrage of transphobic abuse. 'What a farce, Lees is a man' wrote one'.

Finally

'I love being a woman'.

Aaaargh.

OP posts:
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 04/05/2016 21:55

Do you seriously believe that, Blink? What do you think 'woman' means? Is it possible someone might ever be mistaken, or lying?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 04/05/2016 21:57

I just got dh to say 'I am a woman', to see if it is physically possible for someone to say it and not be. Unless that means he is? Shock

BevyofQuails · 04/05/2016 21:59

Doubleplus good newspeak there blink. Well done.

Kidnapped · 04/05/2016 22:00

Maybe not scientifically. Or AT ALL.

WindyMillersProbationOfficer · 04/05/2016 22:08

Blink, if I say I am former UN Secretary General Boutros Boutros-Ghali, does that give me the right to convene a peacekeeping force when I argue with my husband?

EmpressOfTheSevenOceans · 04/05/2016 22:12

I was convinced I was an alien princess when I was five.

Rollinginthevalley · 04/05/2016 22:12

Shall we all walk around in dresses saying 'We identify as men' so give us:

98% of the world's wealth
120% of women's (oops NotMen's) wages
5% of the housework
10% of the childcare
150% of NotMen's pensions

I could go on ...

PalmerViolet · 04/05/2016 22:12

Blink, you can identify as a circus pony for all I care. I don't have to collude with your delusions. In fact, it would be morally and ethically wrong of me to do so.

WellErrr · 04/05/2016 22:13

If someone says they are a woman. They are a woman.

If someone says they are a man. They are a man.

Don't be daft.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 04/05/2016 22:15

If someone says they are a flamingo, they are a flamingo. QED.

Kidnapped · 04/05/2016 22:20

There are lots of convicted criminals who identify as innocent.

There are very few (if any) law-abiding people who identify as guilty.

Do we believe them all? Or do we take evidence into account?

NormaStanleyFletcher · 04/05/2016 22:27

I identify as a unicorn, which is a shame, as I hate glitter.

Didactylos · 04/05/2016 22:30

Reality is consensual

not to get all Wittgenstein about it but the meaning of a word is its use in our language : you can argue that definitions of a word might change over time but if you suddenly declare that black is now called green, sewing is now called swimming, man is now called woman then you cant be surprised when other people who do sharing your frame of reference, who understand certain things are meant by green, black, swimming or woman don't follow your lead and accept that you have redefined their use of the word, its meaning and their reality. I agree with Grayson Perry in this - X has a say in how they are defined too

On a tangential thought: if we are unable to articulate a concept/a grouping/a definition/a socially understood meaning for something we lose the ability to discuss it - Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Which is the main problem of expanding the set 'female' to include those formerly described as 'male', we lose the ability to define the group and therefore discuss shared experiences or problems

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 04/05/2016 22:30

I identify as not drunk

MorrisZapp · 04/05/2016 22:31

Grazia can fuck right off. I bought their shitty rag the other week because it was a quid. If they're going translala they can kiss my future quids bye bye.

I don't know who this Paris Lee joker is and I don't want to know. My blood pressure can't handle it.

Meanwhile transwankers have vandalised the Stonewall monument because it isn't trans enough. Orwellian nightmare indeed.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 04/05/2016 22:31

I also identify as amazed that Wittgenstein has turned out to be useful after all these years, but excellent post, Didactylos.

Didactylos · 04/05/2016 22:42

never thought any of my philosophy reading would ever come in useful but current issues in trans identity have caused me to revisit it all again and I've been surprised how useful its been in helping me clarify the sense of unease I have on the subject
but have never felt the need to post anything about Wittgenstein before Blush

LovingLuna · 04/05/2016 22:46

Didactylos any good reads you advise?

wickedlazy · 04/05/2016 22:53

"Men are always looking back to a time when men were men and trying to bring that back. I’m saying you’ve got to look forward, mate. Women are always looking forward.Men are always looking back to a time when men were men and trying to bring that back. I’m saying you’ve got to look forward, mate. Women are always looking forward."

This was written by a man who was too afraid, too uncomfortable, too something to "be himself" and still use the title man. Instead of looking forward, keeping his penis, and dressing how he likes and using whatever mannerisms he likes, he tells others and himself wait... obviously I must be a woman!

How closely is it related to sexuality? I dated a cross dresser when I was a teenager, until he said he wanted a sex change. I liked the fishnets and eyeliner, but I liked his penis too. He wanted to go out publicaly in female garb, and I think he felt "becoming" a woman was the easiest way to not get mocked or grief..He had also had a strange humiliation fetish I wouldn't indulge in, that made me think he was a bit loony tunes, but don't think that's common. How do they really feel about the op? I could happily live as a man, dress like a man etc, but I'm quite fond huge understatement of my "equipment" and wouldn't let anyone near it with a knife!

shinynewusername · 04/05/2016 22:57

I have just emailed Grazia to explain why they have lost me as a reader. Their email is [email protected], if anyone else wants to follow suit.

CoteDAzur · 04/05/2016 22:57

"If someone says they are a woman. They are a woman. If someone says they are a man. They are a man. Maybe not scientifically."

So what... um... magically? Confused

shinynewusername · 04/05/2016 23:07

If someone says they are a woman. They are a woman. If someone says they are a man. They are a man. Maybe not scientifically. But if someone identifies as either man or woman or even neither. That is what they are

Not even transactivists believe that. If they did, they wouldn't feel the need to shut down discussion of women's issues such as obstetric care and FGM by bleating that it is transphobic to talk about issues that don't affect TW.

Didactylos · 04/05/2016 23:13

not sure how useful my reading list would be but the things I ended up revisiting when thinking about trans issues were Sartre , Kirkegaard and DeBeauvoir as well as Wittgenstein
about the argument between existence and essence and the definition of the individual and in particular the Sartre arguments about choice in Existentialism and Humanism

this may or may not be very helpful: I am a pure hobbyist and have no formal training or expertise in philosophy but I find reading around the subject and trying out thought exercises fascinating and it does help me frame my thoughts about a variety of useful things in my life and work

FloraFox · 04/05/2016 23:18

Paris Lees is an insufferable narcissist.

almondpudding · 04/05/2016 23:40

Wicked lazy, what are you talking about?

That was written by Grayson Perry. He is a man and has never suggested otherwise.