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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men and Non-men

146 replies

noblegiraffe · 17/04/2016 13:15

Interesting discussion here about men as default.

debuk.wordpress.com/2016/04/16/default-male/

Apart from wondering whether the Green Party tweet about non-men is an April Fools, men-as-default is something I've had to make an effort with when talking to my DD. I've noticed that unless the toy/picture in a book is specifically a girl, I'll call it 'Mr Octopus' or say 'What is the doggy doing? He's eating a bone'.

OP posts:
ArcheryAnnie · 18/04/2016 12:19

Oh, and Cherry, under the new trans-inclusive genderqueer politics, I can assure you that butch lesbians are now treated by the queer community as they have always been treated by the straight world: as the lowest of the low. I have seen butch lesbians told they are actually self-hating trans men, and therefore the ultimate oppressors - straight men. I have seen lesbians of every presentation told they are bigots for not wanting to go out with trans women, and that if they were really "inclusive", they would get over their "wholly irrational" dislike for cock. (Lesbians being told they must learn to like cock: so progressive, and not at all something lesbians have been told from time immemorial.)

The current state of queer politics is so lesbophobic I could weep.

CherryPicking · 18/04/2016 12:30

But that's what I mean by sincere - it would have to entail an active giving up of those priveledges. God knows whether Simon does any of this - I don't know him. I do think this is an unusual and rare example and not representative of the way trans women in general would behave.

And I'm just as upset about the treatment of women who refuse to conform to gender norms as you are, but I don't feel reinforcing binary gender ideas about those born male helps anyone either.

ArcheryAnnie · 18/04/2016 12:33

I do think this is an unusual and rare example

I really, really wish that was the case.

BombadierFritz · 18/04/2016 12:34

Many many transwomen live their trans lives on a part time basis - conveniently benefitting from male privilege when it suits, as well as those who choose to transition on a full time basis in late adulthood when their careers are well established and they have benefitted from the wifework of a woman for the 20 childrearing years.

BertrandRussell · 18/04/2016 12:36

"I do think this is an unusual and rare example and not representative of the way trans women in general would behave."

I'm sure it's not the way trans women in general would behave. Sadly, however, those in the public eye..............

vindscreenviper · 18/04/2016 13:02

That fb page is jaw-droppingly awful, what a pr own goal. Apart from the toe curling 'cis tears' memes and the offical spokesperson responding with BOOM + various emojis to their supporters, somebody has now requested that the page admin puts up a trigger warning.

A trigger warning about a debate on the fb page of a mainstream political party, what a bunch of numpties.

vindscreenviper · 18/04/2016 13:07

Between reading that ^^ and the tweets advising Mary Beard on how to give a lecture, I don't think that my eyes will ever point forward again Grin

VestalVirgin · 18/04/2016 13:07

But that's what I mean by sincere - it would have to entail an active giving up of those privileges.

Well, but that would mean to shut up and let women talk. Which is somewhat the opposite of the Non-Party's "Let's some non-men talk" policy.

In fact, the privilege to take up more time talking is the one a man can give up easiest, by just keeping his mouth shut (and sometimes by drawing attention to something a woman said).

Other men can give him jobs and money and respect, and the only way to stop them from doing so would be to convincingly pass as a woman even during a longer conversation (most trans never do) or to behave like an absolute asshole. But other men cannot make him talk if he doesn't want to. (I mean, in civilised society, obviously ...)

To claim to give up male privilege, and then immediately seize the microphone when someone calls for women to say something ... does not convince me that the trans in question truly identifies with women and women's struggles.

Oh, and regarding butch lesbians:

www.gaystarnews.com/article/lesbian-teen-told-leave-uk-mcdonalds-bathroom-staff-thought-male/#gs.LiYjEBo

I originally read about the incident somewhere else, but this is what I found via google.
The girl was obviously female, had not flattened her breasts, nor was her voice in any way masculine. She herself was sure it was obvious from her voice that she is a woman.

I do not believe for a second that the McDonalds employee was actually confused about her sex. But if males (transwomen) are allowed to use the ladies' room, then obviously the bathroom separation is not about gender, not sex. And a butch lesbian is not feminine-gendered enough.

booklooker · 18/04/2016 18:31

And the rest of the world coughs politely and shuffles by.

vindscreenviper · 19/04/2016 15:38

This response to the non-apology by Green Party Women on their fb page is by Beatrix Campbell and is bang on, I wonder if GWP will bother to respond?

"The GPW committee response to the convo on this thread is risible: it is more like a Ryanair faux apology to its poor passengers, or the Royal mantra: never explain, never apologiese.This conversation is about many Green women's riposte to the absurd and misoginyst nomenclature 'non male'; We object to the entire premise upon which it is based; we also object to the GPW representation of 'gender'.
Feminism is a politics of resistance to patriarchy, misoginy, sexism and to the ways that sexism articulates with other political and economic systems: slavery, capitalism and now the neo-liberal hegemony.
Feminism is a movement of resistance to the subordination of women. We don't valorise 'woman' as a category, or femininity' as a culture; we engage in feminism not because it privileges 'woman' but because it problematises ‘woman’, ‘man’ and 'gender'. '
No one in this thread who resists the GPW statement is advocating excluding anybody - the only exclusion, censorship, threat and disrespect that has been shown is by the GP cabal that has forced a popular Green candidate to make a public retraction of his contemplation of the gender problematic - he’s a philosopher, he was dong his job! His public humiliation was unforgivable - and that represents feminism critiques of gender/identity and sexual exploitation through prostitution as transPHOBIA and whorePHOBIA.
The only exclusion is perpetrated by those in the GP who represent critique and contemplation as phobia; by some GP equality spokespersons who have used, abusively, terms such as terfs, swerfs, smurfs, whatever;
Several of us have protested against this abusive behaviour - to no avail.
Phrases such as: 'in GPW we respect and support individuals' affirmed gender. Apologies for any confusion’....expose the origin of the confusion: it lies with those in the GP who promote a notion of ‘gender’ that de-politicises it, that reduces identity to consumerism and individualism, and replaces political structures of oppression with a cornucopia of choices; that erases the social and the structural; finally this approach targets feminism - rather than misoginy - as the enemy;
We aren't confused, you are: what on earth does 'individuals' affirmed gender' mean? I ask because I really have no idea. Actually, I have no idea what ‘woman’ means outside the regime of gender: gender is what sex can’t explain: a social relationship;
We are all structured in the gender system, we don’t choose it, but we all navigate our place in it;
Feminism, above all fundamentally challenges the co-ordinates of gender - the notion of ‘individuals’ affirmed gender’ implies its re-instatement and evacuates gender as a political system predicated on the subordination of women.
By the way this does not mean any surrender to the rubbish category ‘non male’.
Feminism is the only politics to have problematised gender and sex, and yet feminists and their allies have become the target of toxic charges of the transphobia/whorephobia, blah blah blah by GP spokespersons.
You will notice that the critique of the GPW statement has not resorted to the lexicon of abuse - a la alleged phobia. All the piety of GPW, and all the identity-affirming in the world, cannot disguise the sheer bad manners and abuse dished out to feminists.
We are not having it. Many women are just wandering away from the Green Party; and many are just embarrassed by all this irrelevance and idiocy.
The GPW committee-speak response to this thread is not a political engagement, it is more like a Ryanair press release, guided by the Royal mantra ‘never apologise, never explain’.
I could go on, and at some point I will - and no doubt so will many of the other participants in this thread - but for now I'll end with this: please desist from responses to us that take the form of a corporate non-apology 'sorry if you were offended....sorry if you were confused'.
I am not offended or confused, but I am disappointed, dispirited, but not at all surprised, by the GPW agenda and its hapless collapse into misoginy."

vindscreenviper · 19/04/2016 15:38

Gawd that's a long post Blush

Frostycake · 19/04/2016 15:46

This is really interesting and I hadn't thought about it (much) until the other day when I heard a guest on Radio 4 (male) talking who said "she/he would ..." and it struck me as odd because people would normally say "he/she would ..."

I made a mental note to start doing that and to address letters to Dear Madam/Sir as well (instead of the usual Dear Sir/Madam).

Apart from that, I don't see what else we can do other than not automatically assume that someone/something is male from the start. I had to stop myself saying "oh, isn't he lovely" the other day to a lady in a lift with a dog on a lead. Instead, I said "oh, what a beautiful dog."

Homeriliad · 21/04/2016 20:28

Not surprised the Green Party is getting a bashing here; radfem is a pretty conservative/reactionary ideology, so a left wing party is not going to be popular, whether green or Corbyn's Labour.

Vaguely on topic: should one call a female actor or actress?

VestalVirgin · 21/04/2016 20:42

I hope you have a typo here. Radfem is not conservative at all, and to claim such implies that you have no idea at all. Confused

slightlyglitterbrained · 21/04/2016 20:52

Thanks for posting that vindscreenviper! Did it actually stay up there long, or did it get deleted?

Frostycake - default male is so widespread. Starts with board books, which have a pretty shitty gender balance.

Homeriliad · 21/04/2016 20:59

Vestalvirgin, the only groups of people I know who are opposed to transgender women using the women's toilets are southern state US republicans and rad feminists.
There is hostility towards the Green Party, Corbyn's Labour, Socialists, Owen Jones, etc. A conservative attitude towards sexual images.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 21/04/2016 21:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Homeriliad · 21/04/2016 21:09

Yes. Do you know that radicals can be right wing/conservative? cough radicalised Muslims cough

grimbletart · 21/04/2016 21:13

The Green Party are getting a bashing because of their idiocy, not because they are (allegedly) left wing. Non-men FFS.

I am not a non-man, nor are the posters on FWR. We are women. Non-men is a nonsense, made-up claptrap word.

And clearly Homeriliad has no idea what radical means. (I'm not radical BTW but even so I can spot balderdash when I see it).

vindscreenviper · 21/04/2016 21:19

slightly I think it's still on the fb page but the GPW haven't bothered to acknowledge or reply, looks like they are just hoping this all blows over and is forgotten about.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 21/04/2016 21:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BombadierFritz · 21/04/2016 21:25

Grin good one homersiliad could do with a laugh tonight

BertrandRussell · 21/04/2016 21:27

Homersiliad- that's not what radical feminist means.

VestalVirgin · 21/04/2016 21:40

Why do people who have not the slightest idea, nor any interest in what feminism is feel compelled to post on the feminism boards?

(My suspicion is that they're trolling, but I fear they might be serious. I don't know what is worse.)

slugseatlettuce · 21/04/2016 21:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.