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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men and Non-men

146 replies

noblegiraffe · 17/04/2016 13:15

Interesting discussion here about men as default.

debuk.wordpress.com/2016/04/16/default-male/

Apart from wondering whether the Green Party tweet about non-men is an April Fools, men-as-default is something I've had to make an effort with when talking to my DD. I've noticed that unless the toy/picture in a book is specifically a girl, I'll call it 'Mr Octopus' or say 'What is the doggy doing? He's eating a bone'.

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Waitingfordolly · 17/04/2016 20:51

It was the young Greens and my understanding is that they said women and non-men in an attempt to include women and people who don't want to identify with binary gender rather than saying all women are non-men. It makes my head hurt to think about it but I think it's been a bit misrepresented, and is a shame that young people who are trying to work through some of these issues are being ridiculed.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 17/04/2016 21:04

I don't think anyone here is ridiculing young people. We are ridiculing the Green Party.

noblegiraffe · 17/04/2016 21:05

Well they are trying to spin it as inclusive of women, transwomen and non-binary and other genders BUT transwomen are (according to them) women, and their excuse for including non-binary and other genders is because they also experience oppression, however, transmen also experience oppression so by saying 'non-men' they are excluding transmen and their issues.

Why are they including non-binary and other genders who don't identify as women with women?

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tribpot · 17/04/2016 21:13

Caroline Criado Perez has retweeted the (now-deleted) original tweet which said that they wanted the term 'non-men' to be used as an inclusive term for women and everyone else who didn't identify as male.

She's then also tweeted what I think is their clarification, which confirms that they want to use the term 'non-male' as a collective way of describing women and everyone else who doesn't identify as male. They say that they are not saying that women are non-men.

VestalVirgin · 17/04/2016 21:20

Why not just say "Women, men and non-binary"? That would appease the trans and not be as horrible as "non-men"

It's not just the Non-Blue Party - the whole debate about prisons and restrooms also leans in that direction. No woman (and I include transmen in this) would ever want to be imprisoned with males, so there will be a prison for males who admit to being male, and one for "non-men".

RomComPhooey · 17/04/2016 21:21

Yeah, but I'm not 'non-male' - I'm female. Not the same thing. Angry

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 17/04/2016 21:34

Yes me too. The explanation is clearly made by someone who hasn't heard the expression when you are in a hole stop digging.

noblegiraffe · 17/04/2016 21:40

women and everyone else who didn't identify as male.

I'm not someone who doesn't identify as male. I'm a woman because I'm a woman not because I've rejected being male. It's not 'are you a man? No? Well then let's chuck you over there with the other odds and sods'.

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BombadierFritz · 17/04/2016 21:51

Hope they are aiming for about, what, 60?70% 'non men' members and candidates, what with the 'men' category being restricted to 'real men'

QueenLaBeefah · 17/04/2016 21:58

I'm a woman, I haven't at any stage decided that I didn't identify as a man. I was a girl who grew up into a woman. Frankly I feel utterly insulted by the Greens.

CherryPicking · 17/04/2016 22:40

Sorry but there is no 'British Green Party'. There's the Green Party of England and Wales and there's the Green Party of Scotland. The logo on the tweet certainly doesn't belong to the former.

As a long standing member of Green Party Women I imagine we would have been informed of any subjugating grammatical changes to our status.

CherryPicking · 17/04/2016 23:09

And these anti-green posts are always written as though Sian Berry, Jenny Jones, Natalie Bennett, Amelia Womack and Caroline Lucas didn't exist, and didn't completely outrank the men in the party. Can you actually name a contemporary high profile man in the Green Party without googling? Please don't pretend the patriarchy has the upper hand in this instance!

BombadierFritz · 17/04/2016 23:28

Which Green Party? First off you come on to sniffily point out there are two, then its back to 'the greens' as if your first post didnt count, and the 'green party women', whats that of - the world/uk/england/cheshire?

BombadierFritz · 17/04/2016 23:30

Altho i am interested to know why it is not the british green party if there is no green party for n.i (or is there?)

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 18/04/2016 00:09

Can you actually name a contemporary high profile man in the Green Party without googling?

Andy Wightman and Patrick Harvey. Both are , for me another 2 reasons I will never vote for the Green Party. No googling involved.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 18/04/2016 00:14

The former Scottish Green Party leader Robin Harper was lovely but Harvey is hard left. Robin Harper was very critical of the way the party was going during the Independence referendum.

tribpot · 18/04/2016 01:12

I must say the only person in the Green Party I know is Caroline Lucas.

noblegiraffe, perhaps I should have said women and everyone who doesn't identify as male, that was my interpretation rather than something explicitly stated in the Green Party tweet.

Cherry, the logo on the tweet is of 'Green Party Women', which describes itself on its website as "a subgroup of the Green Party of England & Wales."

zozzij · 18/04/2016 01:14

Please don't pretend the patriarchy has the upper hand in this instance!

Handmaidens.

CherryPicking · 18/04/2016 07:18

Well I certainly wasn't consulted.

The only time this has come up for me is at conference where it actually made sense because man after man raised their hands to speak and JJ who was chairing decided she wanted to encourage women to speak. I think someone in the wings advised her to ask 'people who don't identify as male' to put their hands up Wasn't really an issue at the time and the end result was a plenery much less male-dominated than it would have been. Yes, one or two transwomen spoke alongside the rest - good for them! Insightful, interesting perspectives which in no way detracted from my right to speak. Don't get all the fear and suspicion of transwomen on mumsnet at all. Fear of the other perhaps?

For me, the main issue which arises from this is equality for transmen. If 'non-men' are referred to, surely this doubly excludes those who spent their early lives female and then transitioned to male?

The Greens are flawed, undoubtedly, but it's an ongoing conversation. If you don't like one of the policies you just find a small group of people who agree with you and submit a motion to conference to change It. Actually surprisingly democratic compared to most political parties. Yes, it's still male dominated - it exists within a patriarchal society and unintentionally reflects it. I couldn't tell you the number of times I've sat on my hands, afraid to say what I needed to, and been almost hypnotised watching one man after another chip in with such natural authority although their points were no more pertinent or informed than mine. I've sat there wondering where this dominance comes from and how we tackle it.

The thing is, it's a work in progress. If you disagree with something the main barrier you normally face is that of speaking up and being heard. It isn't a conspiracy to undo the progress women have made, it's just some voices are still more dominant than others, and those are the ones that are heard. We're just a bunch of people trying to do the right thing and often getting it wrong, really. Like many other organisations. At least the intention to increase equality is there.

MyCrispBag · 18/04/2016 07:27

For me, the main issue which arises from this is equality for transmen. If 'non-men' are referred to, surely this doubly excludes those who spent their early lives female and then transitioned to male?

That's not the main issue for me but it certainly sticks out as an example of how male privilege seems to underpin the mainstream trans rights movement.

BombadierFritz · 18/04/2016 07:33

I heard about that moment, or another v similar one. So you listen to man after man speak, then 'non men' are invited to speak and the time is then taken up by 'former men' speaking, and you dont see at all how that could be seen as yet another example of women being ignored????

CherryPicking · 18/04/2016 07:37

And to call the women who have managed to fight their way to the top 'handmaidens' is really not a feminist position at all. You're basically saying 'it doesn't matter what you do, or what you accomplish, I can negate all that with a single word'. How does that empower women?

BombadierFritz · 18/04/2016 07:38

Why do you think women contributed less? Is it their breasts that stop them? Perhaps concentrating on their make up makes it harder to think? I see the transmen got thrown under the bus again too though. Funny that.

CherryPicking · 18/04/2016 07:39

The English and welsh one. And it's not sniffy to correct a large error in an article! And yes one or two 'former men' spoke. The sky didn't fall. Women were heard.

CherryPicking · 18/04/2016 07:42

Why are you insulting me bombardier? I don't get your point at all. To dignify your question with a response I'd say ingrained sexism and male dominance within society as a whole. Certainly not a green party invention.