Female jealousy?

[loveyoulikeaplanet]

In RL and in SO many threads on MN this is offered up as an explanation for women behaving badly in their interactions with other women.

A woman at work/a friend/ someone at the school gate does X ...
or made this insensitive or plain horrible remark.

Response - she's obviously jealous of you.

Can someone please explain this to me?. I don't 'get it' at all yet hear it all the time and see it on MN and other forums all the time.

Do lots of women really think this is the reason why another woman is behaving badly or simply being mean?.

This has been bugging me for ages but I haven't turned it into a thread before now. It's come into the forefront of my mind today as work with a woman who is below me in the work hierarchy (I don't give a shit about hierarchy btw) who is often rude to me and after excusing it for a while, I said something to colleagues who have clearly noticed it too and said 'I think she's probably jealous of you'.

Jealous of what? That I have a different job ? Am I supposed to believe that my position/life is what she wants and she's bitter because I have it and she doesn't?.

I think that's bollocks and she might just be a bit moody or doesn't like me for whatever reason she is entitled to hold.

I NEVER hear this said about men or by men about other men. If a man has been put down or brushed aside or criticised by another man the reason is never suggested to be jealousy.

Forums like MN are often ideologically feminist in lots of ways but this idea of female jealousy seems to be so ingrained it comes up time and time again as an immediate response on lots of threads.

Yes, I agree with that, Squirrel, and your point that it is often a structural class issue, too. But, as you point out, often women are more affected by the inability to break away from these inequalities and, therefore, being judged for being 'jealous' of such inequalities seems particularly belittling to me.

Of course, it might also be that when someone does happen to have been blessed with superior looks, intelligence or social class, and that person is very self-congratulatory about that, it simply rubs people up the wrong way. So rather than jealousy, it might simply be extreme irritation. Just a thought.

Of course, it might also be that when someone does happen to have been blessed with superior looks, intelligence or social class, and that person is very self-congratulatory about that, it simply rubs people up the wrong way. So rather than jealousy, it might simply be extreme irritation. Just a thought.

Oh please. I existed. I'm terribly sorry I wasn't overweight, disruptive in class, had ambition and lived in a house with books. The fact I existed was enough for the school bullies. And I'm supposed to spare a thought for them?

it might also be that when someone does happen to have been blessed with superior looks, intelligence or social class, and that person is very self-congratulatory about that, it simply rubs people up the wrong way
Sure - 'smug' people... I think it is the sense of such people feeling superior/looking down their nose/etc is more than irritating, because it belies they have written less-fortunate others off as being worthless - for things that are simply the luck of the draw.

Lass, everything is not all about nor directed at you.

I don't know you.
I don't know how much you weigh, how good looking you may be, how clever or intelligent you actually are.

You are, however, very 'superior' in tone and dismissive of others.

I am not and have never been a bully, I am not jealous in any way of you as I have no reason to be - but I do find your tone and posts irritating.
Perhaps I would find you irritating in real life and you would rub me up the wrong way.
Who knows?

Perhaps it wasn't just 'that you existed' that meant people didn't like you?
Perhaps there were other reasons?
Things don't generally happen in a vacuum.

What donajimena said. I agree that I think it is sexist. A mother saying 'they are just jealous of you darling because you are so pretty' is informing her she should feel pity of other people rather than anger at how she is being treated. Pity is an emotion you feel when you are quite calm - it's not a very nice emotion either but it is easier to 'handle' people who are feeling it than people who are feeling anger. God forbid that a bullied attractive child should fight back, or make a formal complaint, or cause trouble of some kind - better for her to reorder her emotions internally.

It is also reinforcing the constant message that women are valued for their looks - even if in theory the speaker is not confirming this message but just saying that it is what other people think, it is still saying 'you will always be judged by your looks'.

I have to say that my experience is that some quite unpleasant people think other people are jealous of them when in fact they're just a pain to be around. But I'm willing to believe that it's because i'm plug ugly and I know it In fact, I rarely feel envious of looks exactly, more of social capital and sophistication which is not quite the same thing.

I do agree that lots of nasty behaviour/bullying stems from jealousy.

I see it in both sexes.
It doesn't mean she is necessarily jealous of your position, it could be a whole different thing entirely thy she is envious of or annoys her. She may not even realise it herself!

I have seen it from men too as I used to work with a lot of men.

Just look at all he comments on daily mail. An attractive man will be slated by men most and attractive woman will mostly be slated by other women.

Men will shout 'jealousy' when the women do it. But they do it too!

It's not all about looks though. May be money, knowledge, power, status, property, education, family, relationship, partner
Anything! And the person who is jealous may not even recognise this themself

Men are just as jealous women. Fact

Do you get the feeling that we live in a society where women are set against each other?

Female jealousy is a consequence you would expect when we are taught to believe that there is a limited amount of "stuff" around and that we have to compete against one another for it.

Somehow we are not in competition with men in the same way - maybe because we are not allowed "men's stuff", it is not for us.

The "stuff" in question could be respect or attention or friendship or money or jobs or romantic partners or all kinds of other things.

Agree Pam.

Sometimes people perceive others as feeling superior to them or 'looking down nose' at them when this is not the case.

Squirrel used more grownup words than me - "structural inequality" is probably what I was trying to get at there.

I do agree that lots of nasty behaviour/bullying stems from jealousy

Yes. As for MrsBo's comment- personal anecdotes seem to be welcome on here as long as they support the concensus. The concensus here seems to be "oh dear how terribly sexist to say that appalling conduct by women might be motivated by jealousy"

Your comment "Perhaps it wasn't just 'that you existed' that meant people didn't like you? Perhaps there were other reasons?
Things don't generally happen in a vacuum" is getting quite close to victim blaming.

I did absolutely nothing to these girls and was verbally and physically bullied by them and you are trying to suggest there was a reason or justification for it.

The concensus here seems to be "oh dear how terribly sexist to say that appalling conduct by women might be motivated by jealousy"

I don't think it's a consensus, I think it's a point that we are exploring. It's something that the OP has heard, and that others on here are saying they have heard a lot, being applied to women and we are exploring why it might be that we hear that more about women than men. Some have then analysed whether or not that says something deeper about women's experiences in our society and how women are viewed in our society because, well, it's a feminist forum. Of course, others on the thread have even said that it is not something they have heard at all or that in fact, they have heard this being related to men as well. So it's a concept that we are exploring and analysing, it's not a consensus at all.

The fact I existed was enough for the school bullies.
Bullying is a weird dynamic because it helps a group to bond by other othering and victimising someone. They choose all sorts of victims - often because they are non-threatening eg- physically slight, bookish, vulnerable because of illness, bereavement,etc. The 'jealous' component enables bullies to vent frustration about structural inequality at the same time.

But in this thread, it is about a broader issue than group bullying. The op seems to suggest that female behaviours can be wrongly attributed to jealousy and when males act jealously it is often wrongly attributed to something else.

Also there's a sense that women can be fobbed off with the 'just jealous' explanation of bad behaviour, when it would be respectful to give the situation deeper thought - because the facile assumption of other people being jealous of us may boost our ego temporarily but is unlikely to make it all okay again.

*Your comment "Perhaps it wasn't just 'that you existed' that meant people didn't like you? Perhaps there were other reasons?
Things don't generally happen in a vacuum" is getting quite close to victim blaming.

I did absolutely nothing to these girls and was verbally and physically bullied by them and you are trying to suggest there was a reason or justification for it.*

It is not 'victim blaming' to acknowledge that sometimes people just don't like other people.
I didn't once condone bullying.
I just suggested that there may have been more to it than 'you existed' is all.

I didn't try to justify bullying, you've extrapolated that from my post.

Please don't try to paint yourself as my victim now, as I said I don't know you or anything about you other than the posts on this thread - and on this thread I find your tone superior & irritating.

Anna dale I just saw this
A mother saying 'they are just jealous of you darling because you are so pretty' is informing her she should feel pity of other people rather than anger at how she is being treated. Pity is an emotion you feel when you are quite calm - it's not a very nice emotion either but it is easier to 'handle' people who are feeling it than people who are feeling anger. God forbid that a bullied attractive child should fight back, or make a formal complaint, or cause trouble of some kind - better for her to reorder her emotions internally.

This is so true - a feeling we should pity and forgive our aggressors - I never thought of 'they're just jealous' as a self-oppressing 'don't make an unlady-like fuss'... wow!

I've got to be honest, from my own personal experiences I have found this to be true. I've found rudeness, bullying and passive aggressive little digs are more often than not motivated by feelings of jealousy. Obviously I can't know for sure but I feel that I know my friends very well and know what triggers them and I can just tell.
However I definitely don't think it's just women. Men are the same in my opinion!

I just suggested that there may have been more to it than 'you existed' is all.

The basis of most school bullying is little more than that. Try telling a bullied child "oh it's just that sometimes people don't like you"

The victim is there and is perceived as different by the people doing the bullying. The victim rarely, if at all, has to do anything.

You are getting very close to condoning bullying with comments like sometimes people don't like you or there may be more to it.

Why you are so determined that jealousy can't be a factor escapes me.

I don't know you either. I don't recognise your username but I find your tone and posts very irritating too.

I've found rudeness, bullying and passive aggressive little digs are more often than not motivated by feelings of jealousy.

Even if this is the case, I think it can be silencing for someone to come forward with this as an explanation before hearing the issue out. My mum does this almost accompanied by a dismissive wave of the hand. She might as well say 'go tell someone who gives a shit, whiner'.

I don't think it's a consensus, I think it's a point that we are exploring.

I agree with PinkINdustry - I think it's interesting how keen people are (on many threads, not just this one) to see a "consensus" of people against them. When in reality many different opinions and thoughts have been expressed.

There you go then Lass, mutual dislike on both sides.
That's fine.
Some people like each other, some don't.

And fwiw, I would actually say to a bullied person 'sometimes people just don't like each other' (in fact, I've said much the same thing to my kids actually).
It takes any drama, emotion, or self doubt out of an emotional situation and reduces it to fact.
That doesn't mean that I 'condone' bullying, I don't, I challenge bullying whenever I see it - I can't abide the pack mentality of bullying either and always challenge that too.

At school last year, my son was attacked with a hammer - had to have his head stapled back together.
Did he deserve it? No.
Did he 'ask for it'? No.
Was it wholly and entirely, 100% the choice of the person that picked up the hammer and hit him with it? Yes
Was his attacker 100% responsible for their actions? Yes.

But I did make damned sure he realised that although it wasn't 'his fault' that it happened, these things don't happen in a vacuum and as such he had to acknowledge how his actions leading up to it had contributed to the incident occurring in the first place.

although it wasn't 'his fault' that it happened, these things don't happen in a vacuum and as such he had to acknowledge how his actions leading up to it had contributed to the incident occurring in the first place.

I'm not with you on this one. Some kids bully younger siblings because they don't want to share their parents (jealous of this relationship).... a baby can't help being born. Sometimes simply existing is enough to incur victimisation and there's not always something different a victim could have done.

My son was absolutely 100% a victim.

But in that particular situation it was a valuable life lesson to learn that you have to be aware of how your own actions may impact on those around you.

It was not a sibling affair, it was a boy at school (a friend of his actually, although obviously not a friend now).

It's probably specific to the situation. . But surely either you son was partly culpable in the situation and could have behaved differently or he was 100% the victim and there was nothing he could have done?