Corbyn - "I'm in favour of decriminalising the sex industry"

[IndominusRex]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/04/jeremy-corbyn-decriminalise-sex-industry-prostitution?CMP=share_btn_tw

Not a huge shock but still troubling to see him say it.

"Prostitution does not damage women. Prostitutes do not damage other women. Patriarchy damages women. Can't feminists stick together on that?"

Men considering they have the right to buy consent, to rent women's orifices as wanksocks and to complain afterwards if said woman didn't seem enthusiastic enough about it, seems the very definition of a set of patriarchal actions.

"Blaming prostitutes for men using prostitutes doesn't get anyone very far"

I don't blame prostitutes, I blame punters and want punters criminalised.

I hope the Nordic model will become more popular across the world in how it puts men on the spot.

Unfortunately in the UK, seeing as this concept is not terribly popular amongst men, it is not a vote winner for Corbyn. In speaking for decriminalization it proves how Corbyn has safety of prostitutes in mind, while he is not opting for the radical, anti-man NM in order to call in these protections.

Yes Barefoot, in being a prostitute I am probably as patriarch compliant as one could possibly get.

But I didn't have options. I needed money. I was experienced in sex, not much else. It was an obvious choice.

I am fully aware how patriarchy has defined my life.

Untill this is overthrown, women need to not be criminalised, stigmatized, or slurred by other women because of their life path.

Lass there really is a difference. Decriminalization does not make it "any old job" and still lists it as an offense. Legalisation is completely different.
Goodness just RTFT please. Repetition galore here

Actually Ophelia being or using a prostitute is not an offense, certainly not in the UK so I don't know what you are on about it "still being listed as an offence " It isn't an offence now.

To be clear I really, really don't care what terminology you use. I do not want a society where brothels,pimps etc are legal.

"Untill this is overthrown, women need to not be criminalised, stigmatized, or slurred by other women because of their life path."

The Nordic model criminalises punters, not prostitutes.

Is it feminists who stigmatise and slur prostitutes who have few or no other options to earn money? I really don't think it is.

Lass I don't want there to be any prostitution so nothing to tax, not to make a case that a legal distinction should be made. When people say prostitution should be legalised and taxes, they should think about what that means.

Untill this is overthrown, women need to not be criminalised

What are you "criminalised" for?

Soliciting and running brothels are criminal. These activities do actually affect other people,women,men and children, who have no interest or involvement with prostitution.

Selling or hiring your body in private will not criminalise you.

Flora No I get that- it's just part of the absurdity of say treating brothels as any other nightclub. If it's a legitimate, legal business....

Lass - To answer the question you last posted for 0phelia, I'm going to post a quote from one of the links I posted earlier (which everyone still appears to conveniently be ignoring )

"Decriminalisation means the abolition of all the laws on prostitution. Although exchanging sex for money isn’t illegal, in practice it is virtually impossible to work without breaking the law. Women working on the street are charged with loitering and soliciting (and increasingly ASBOs and compulsory rehabilitation orders). Two women or more working in premises can be charged with brothel keeping. Anyone who associates with a sex worker (lover, friend, partner) can be done for controlling. Raids and prosecutions are increasing and hundreds of women who are working to survive and support their families are having their lives wrecked by a criminal conviction – as a result they will find it almost impossible to get any other kind of employment. And most importantly, women’s safety is seriously undermined as sex workers are deterred from coming forward to report rape and other violence for fear of arrest (and for immigrant women, fear of deportation) – violent men know that and are quick to take advantage."

prostitutescollective.net/2010/09/28/decriminalisation-of-prostitution-v-legalisation-2/

Noted. Brazen Although I really don't need this to be explained.

It does not change my position. I am not in favour of decriminalisation or legalising of prostitution.

In case there is any doubt, I do not support legalising brothels. I do not have any problem with brothel keepers being prosecuted. Nor do I care whether this is the owner of a German super-brothel or two or more women working together in premises. To be clear I am not interested in anything which gives a shred of legitimacy to prostitution.

Lass - Oh don't worry, your stance has been made very clear!

But you did ask, "What are you 'criminalised' for?" so I assumed you wanted an answer.

I'll hush up now and get back to being a 'wanksock', as Barefoot so eloquently put it

"What are you 'criminalised' for?" so I assumed you wanted an answer

Yes I did want an answer. It was not clear to me what the activity being complained of as being criminalised was, given prostitution per se is not a crime although the activities which facilitate it are crimes. I'm clear now,thank you. You think those ancillary, facilitating activities should be legal. I don't.

I can provide a list of words that men who use prostitutes frequently use to refer to prostitutes that goes leagues beyond "wanksock". Do you require that list?

I offer only because you're obviously utterly terrified to acknowledge the truth about how the men who use prostitutes speak about you even as you lie to defend them as "nice guys" and twist what everyone here can see about how and why the term "wanksock" was used in this discussion.

As is, I hope, obvious to anyone who hasn't got a vested interest in twisting my words, I do not think of prostitutes as wanksocks.

Punters do, and worse, and that's why I despise punters.

Barefoot - Have you asked clients what they think? Reading online punting forums gives you a very limited pool of clients to base your judgements on and, admittedly, they aren't a shining example in a lot of cases!

Fortunately, it's only a small percentage of clients that tend to post online... and many of their posts should be taken with a pinch of salt. Men do speak to each other about women in a pretty vulgar and 'male-bravado' type of way sometimes (sex work related or not) and it can make for grim reading when it's down in black and white instead of banter in a pub corner.

Many other posts on those forums are made by fantasists who've never even met a sex worker, or men who truly resent the women in this industry (of which, there are many). So believe me, most sex workers hate those forums just as much as you do.

I can't defend all clients as being sweet, lovely and respectful. I only wanted to point out that they are not inherently awful just because they pay for sex. They're a varied bunch, like any other collection of people, and most of them are pretty normal guys who just need a bit of sex and affection.

Also, the 'wanksock' comment in my last post was meant in a light-hearted way. I honestly wasn't attempting to twist your words.

For anyone who's actually willing to click on the links I'm providing, here's a ted talk from another current sex worker discussing the various legal models imposed on prostitution and their effects:

She's far better at driving the important points home than I am, so I'm actually begging you all to listen to her (and those of us she speaks for.)
It'll only take 20 minutes out of your day.

From the quote from prostitutescollective.net:
"Anyone who associates with a sex worker (lover, friend, partner) can be done for controlling."

In the past 10 years, how many lovers, friends and partners in the UK have been charged with controlling? How many have then been convicted?

Pimps control prostitutes. Some lovers, friends or partners do pimp prostitutes and they should be prosecuted for controlling prostitution but I think the prostitutes' collective is being disingenuous, giving the impression that the police are routinely trying to frame innocent lovers, friends and partners for pimping.

Decades ago, the lovers, friends and partners of prostitutes used to run the risk of "living off immoral earnings". I don't know if that law still exists but the criminal justice system nowadays seems to prefer a law about "controlling prostitution". I remember having a discussion with a prostitute who used her money from prostitution to support her unemployable layabout partner. Decades ago, perhaps he could have been prosecuted for spending her money. Nowadays, he doesn't have to worry about prosecution because a prostitute and her associate can and do just stick to a story of no control.

I've seen the TED talk Brazen.

It's all true. Any intervention by legislation of any kind makes it all more dangerous for those working.

Nordic Model increases secrecy, silence and anonymity, and forces it underground.

Legalisation makes everyone jump through hoops in order to comply, and does not protect workers.

Partial criminalisation that we have in the UK makes it unsafe for workers because we can't work together or share information freely.

Decriminalization is the best option for people working and society as a whole.

I must admit I veer between pro-Nordic model and then pro-Decriminalisation quite a lot...

I strongly believe men should be held accountable for their actions,
But targeting prostitution with useless and back-firing legislation is basically attacking the vulnerable.

"Partial criminalisation that we have in the UK makes it unsafe for workers because we can't work together or share information freely."

If the prostituted woman in the room next to you started screaming because of what a john started doing to her, what do you think you could realistically do to help her?

I say: decriminalize (NOT legalize) and then double-up on all efforts being made to help women who want to get out of the trade, to do so (saner drugs policies would help, as the majority of sex workers are also substance abusers).

For women who are absolutely clear that they are genuinely happy working in the sex trade (and i don't think they are more than a minority, but they do exist), respect their agency, and do what is necessary to help them stay as safe as possible.

Re: the Nordic model... Sweden now has a significant sex imbalance among people in their late teens, a phenomenon which is known to be linked with greatly increased demand for paid sex. I wonder what will happen over the next decade? It's interestingand worryingto speculate on what will come about as demographics collide with the Nordic model.

Sillage I sometimes share a flat with a friend in the evening. I wouldn't hesitate to run in there and intervene. After running the guy off, it would be up to my friend what she wanted to do.

I would expect the police in my city to be helpful. They have demonstrated that they're good on that sort of thing. Although the flat technically a brothel I don't think they would give any trouble. They dealt with a guy going around robbing massage parlours very effectively a year or so ago. Those parlours are still open.

"After running the guy off,"

So you've never once come to the aid of any woman being attacked by a man, prostituted woman or not.

How do you fantasize you would run him off? It's likely he brought a weapon with him, and even more likely he's bigger and stronger than you.

The Nordic model says women don't have do the job of the police in protecting themselves and/or other women from violent criminals, because police are trained and equipped to deal with violent criminals and you aren't.

These hypothetical questions are a bit random!
Decriminalization also means, as with Nordic Model, that the police are there to sort out violent and threatening behaviour, that women shouldn't have to deal on their own with violence.

In our current legal climate, for a hypothetical scenario, two women are working together in a flat, a violent punter comes in, the women feel forced not call the police in fear they will raise alert that the premises will then be seen as a brothel and one or both of the women will end up with a criminal record. Both NM and Decriminalisation solve this particular problem.