BoysToys

[SlowFJH]

We have two boys and a girl (all now teenagers). My daughter was never into dolls and never really liked pink. She was into arts and crafts and loves knitting and sowing. The boys were completely stereotypical (plastic and wooden swords, guns, cars, diggers and tractors, soldiers etc).

We have good feminist friends (with three boys) who banned violent toys for boys. They always gave us the cat's bum face when they visited ours because their boys used to absolutely love playing with my sons' swords and shields. When we went out it for a walk, every stick they found was a gun - despite their parents vocal disapproval.

My friend's boys (now all strapping teenage lads) joke about how their parents banned them from having the toys they always wanted.

We definitely saw differences in toy preferences very early on. My daughter had zero interest in wheeled toys (despite my efforts) but both boys were fascinated by them virtually from day one.

I know my experience is not scientific. But there were some studies several years ago using baby apes (who obviously had not been conditioned by human systems or been exposed to advertising etc). Baby male apes showed a clear preference for mechanical toys over plush toys.

www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

I'd love to hear others views on this topic... social conditioning versus biological predispositions.

MyCrispBag
I can relate to that. Mine got into swords and knights etc after we'd visited castles. From then on it was a slippery slope.

We never tried to "ban" anything.... probably just dithered and said "Erm I'm not sure you really need the Rapid Strike CS 18 Power Blaster do you darling?"

"But the clip holds 18 foam darts and has a range of 75 feet"

"Oh very well. But afterwards let me tell you all about Gandhi and the passive resistance movement"

You must have truat they won't dk anything stupid with them though, slow. Your boys must have been quite responsible. Maybe your friends boys weren't?

StarCat
Yes the people I knew who got really good at chess were let's say "a special kind wonderfull in their own way". I'm talying about people who can memorise entire games and compute options 10, 20, 30 moves ahead. I don't want to generalise here but being able to do that typically does not require a lot of empathy, social skills and care. Not saying you can't have a combination of both though.

Sp wonderful and talking

My friend's sons were / are lovely. Polite, considerate and responsible. They did used to go a bit mental with my sons' swords and guns and I had to explain that you don't actually hit anyone on any part of the body - just pretend to. Perhaps socialising them to something as a toy actually helps them in the long run. Don't know. All of my children are as anti-real gun as we are.

I have tried that but as autism/adhd involved she knows she shouldn't but she just has a very bad temper. We also tried it with golf clubs until she whacked her sister in the face!

We aren't anti real life weapons here. Dh and myself both spent a few years shooting as adults. It's different when you're an adult though.

We have got nerf guns

They have all used them (2 boys and a girl) but ds2 most of all

The funniest part was one halloween when ds2 was using the "life size" zombie pictures as target practice

All we could hear ( from 11 year old ds2) was

"Yay...right in the nuts"

Or

"Oh no....in the pocket"

Depending on how well he was doing

All three of mine had a range of toys and until ds1 matured into a young man dd was easily the most violent and aggressive of the three

Ds1 is much bigger and stronger now...and i havent raised a stupid daughter

Yes I think banning a class of toy that they see all their friends playing with possibly adds to the appeal of it.

DS has a couple of Nerf guns.
We have played a shoot out in the corridor.
The cat enjoyed chasing the bullets.
DS rarely pays any attention to them.

We don't give them violent toys, we try to find better alternatives e.g. water squirters that aren't shaped like guns. We don't throw out ones they are given or ban them playing at friends' houses, but we do enforce strict no aiming at people rules whatever other people's house rules are. And most importantly explain why!
Don't see why they can't learn violence is unpleasant alongside other rules of civilised society. Kids do absorb their parents' attitudes.

In a couple of years, in upper primary, it's likely that some of ds classmates will be playing 18 rated shoot-em-ups. Assume you would ban that Slow? And expect DC to abide by that ban even if you're not there? If they don't know by junior primary that different families have different rules then I'd think we'd gone wrong somewhere.

We are strict about age ratings on films and computer games.

We've been more liberal with toys (as long as they're still age approprate and safe). My youngest used to have a full knights outfit along with a hobby horse (yes it was a stallion hobby horse ) and quite heavy wooden battle axe. He knew even from the age of three never to hit anyone or thing with it.

The historic aspect is interesting isn't. One of the reasons Terry Deary has done so well with his Horrible Histories books is that he does tap into the darker, gory and sometimes scatological side of history. I think this has a particular appeal to boys (but this might just be social conditioning again). Exploring and learning about something in a safe environment is a good thing in my book

Any daughters who do like chess?

I was part of a lunch time chess club at my all-girls school. It was very popular and we weren't all geeks.

Also the horrible history books were some of my favourite as a child. I have never thought of those as 'boy books'! They are just as appealing to girls.

Ds1 and dd had no interest in guns or swords ever

Then ds2 turned up and all bets were off

All three of mine have been taught to play chess and only really played it a lot when they were much younger. None of them are fussed now

I can play chess but i have no patience whatsoever so dont play it

70's child, climbed trees, played with trainsets, meccano, lego, action men and board games. I did play with dolls but very rarely, i did have a bit of a fascination with dolls houses...still do

I did have a bionic man "doll"

I love the way evo-bollocks is used to try and work out why men do better at chess than women do.

Chess is a game which requires a huge amount of concentration, memory and patience. Evo-bollockists like to tell us that boys don't have this, that's why games which don't require running around and letting off steam, are more suitable for girls.

Except chess. When suddenly, evo-bollockists bring forth the idea that it's only the geeky boys who have evolved to be good at it and go on to be Nigel Short. And the patience, concentration and ability to sit still which is usually argued that girls have in abundance, all count for nothing, because when it comes to money and status, which is what you get at grand-master level, evo-bollockists suddenly find that men have unaccountably evolved to have more of it, hence the lack of women grand-masters.

Does anyone really believe this shit? Didn't people stop believing this guff in the seventies? Fucking ell, Mumsnet really shows the impact of backlash. Women don't do chess for the same reasons they don't do other things men have decided they own. Which is a variety of social and economic factors, none of which are genetic and most of which are rooted in patriarchy. Like men banning women from playing in the first chess tournaments for example.

AskBasil
What specifically is evo-bollocks ?

Are there particular specialisms of evolution, biology and psychology you think we should stop researching because you've decided its evo-bollocks?

I'm really curious what you put in that bucket and why.

Also AskBasil
I've been trying to find out which specific chess tournaments women were (are?) banned from. Can you please clarify?

Good God slow - you don't have to be banned from something to know that you're not welcome!

You just don't get invited, or no-one talks to you, or they actively intimidate you, or there's no facilities for girls, or because you know no-one at the club you can't get lifts, you don't play it at other times because you don't hang out with those people, perhaps you don't have a chess set at home, and no relative thinks to buy one for you, you've never seen a female chess player, none of your existing peers are interested or they don't have chess sets either etc. Hundreds of ways that people can be discouraged from doing something without explicitly being banned.

I played chess as a kid, personally, I don't enjoy investing so much effort in a hobby with nothing to show at the end of it, but I'll probably teach my kids just as part of a well rounded education.

Evo-bollocks was quite well explained I thought - retroactively telling people that women evolved to use frying pans because female monkeys did and similar ridiculous justifications. Including the illogicality that boys can't sit still and that's why girls do better at school - then when it comes to chess when suddenly boys can sit still, and girls can't play because they're not logical enough.

"If so, why castrate male kittens, puppies and ponies?"

Population control, it's easier than doing it to females...

Actually recent research in dogs shows higher instances of aggression in castrated males.

GreenTomato
The question was directed at AskBasil but thanks for your input.

Good god Slow you don't have to be banned from something to know you're not welcome.

So we're clear that women were not in fact "banned" from toureamers as AskBasil stated.

In fact, as chess is a pursuit that has no physical requirements for separating the sexes, the international chess federation (FIDA) went out of its way to encourage more women to enter - eventually setting up a separate women's tournament in 1927 - before many countries had given women the vote.

As "Evo-bollocks" is not a scientific term, it is entirely fair to ask the user what he/she means by it specifically. To the uninitiated it could be a phrase used by a creationist to reject the whole of evolution

Tournaments (autocorrect)

Like men banning women from playing in the first chess tournaments

For readers who are interested in facts rather an agenda, you won't be surprised to learn that there has actually never been a recorded instance in history when multitudes of female chess players had to be banned from entering by evil men.