AIBU Junior Doctors - be professional and get back to your duties NOW !

[Lanchester]

AIBU Junior Doctors - Act responsibly and get back to work NOW !
If you want to work less hours fair enough.
And in fact you probably should be campaigning for that - together with an extra year or two of training so that you can get the necessary practical experience.
BUT at the moment you seem to be in effect saying that you want to continue to work long hours and continue to get premium rates for doing so.
Its really about your pay !

Meanwhile patient care is being put very much second to your own financial interests.

BarbarianMum,

"..... debating style just shout louder til you drown out the opposition whilst refusing to actually engage in debate down to a T."

Thank you for your posting at 14:32

• I would point out that the people who posted in the last few minutes before your post DID make very unreasonable and unconstructive contributions to the discussion.

Hopefully my postings are more constructive than theirs.

If you yourself disagree with something in particular, why not say exactly what it is and why you disagree with it?

YABU!

1. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and...
2. Your most recent post makes me think you want an argument for the sake of it and don't even believe your own nonsense.

Sirzy

Junior doctors should work less hours per week and should only get paid for the hours they work.
Their reduced hours should be spaced over 7 days.
They should not get paid extra for working at the weekend (especially as they are actually being trained)
Their training should be extended so that they can get enough experience.
The government should employ more junior doctors.

The BMA should be arguing to implement the above things.

So where are you getting the extra doctors from? And the extra money to pay for them? You want to reduce the hours worked whilst also increasing the number of hours that need to be worked - doesn't take a genius to spot the problem there!

And that's before we go down the lines of thinking of all the radiographer, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, clinic based nurses and hcas etc etc that would be needed to be employed to cover weekends.

YABU. I would like junior doctors to work less and earn more. I would also like more of them as that is what is necessary to fill the gap. I am happy to pay more tax to make this reality. I also extend this view to nurses and teachers.

Barbarianmum - funnily enough that question has been asked before about this poster who prediminatly posts on this subject and always is very pro JH/ very anti Junior Dr

IloveCheese11

but why should they work less and earn more?

and expect mainly poorer people to pay for that?

Good grief, how many threads does one poster need about the same subject?

wonkylegs

it is true that we both seem to have been on some of the same posts as each other
Evidently we find some of the same things important and worth discussing.

Lanchester what makes you say that not wanting a a pay cut as a Junior Doctors (all doctors not being a consultant or GP) is a stratospheric financial expectation? The average Junior Doctor is 29yp and paid £29k. Not a lot for a top graduate with years of training and experience. Out of that modest salary (two of my friends' DC got paid more than that rate for Summer jobs as undergraduates at 19yo), they pay tax and then they pay exam fees, insurance and accommodation of about £5k (or those that can afford the exams do it, others have to languish without progression).

You are right that some doctors (eg psychiatrists) currently retiring have a generous pension scheme. That is NOT however true for the current cohort of JDs. They were top of their schools, trained for 5 or 6 years before earning a penny (racking up debt) and are responsible for saving people's lives every day of the week, under threat of being sued (heartbreaking) should they make a slip, with little if any choice about where they are sent to work and for what hours and you think £29k pay being CUT is reasonable or will protect the NHS or patients? How? But really the point is that a lot of these JDs are going to vote with their feet. I know a few and they are all looking at options..... they have dedicated years of their lives, a lot of money, and all their dreams to caring for the sick but are about to be forced to consider their options as they also have to take into account supporting their own families.

I fully support the Junior Doctor strike as the alternative (imposition of the new contract) will mean having no NHS at all within about 5 years.

I am in hospital a LOT. It's not the junior doctors causing the issue. It's the shut down of all the other professions who assist doctors, that cause the shutdown. So pharmacy being unavailable (weekend skeleton staff only) and microbiology etc not working at the weekends that actually causes us the most issues. All the other areas that lead the doctors to struggle to do their job as effectively at the weekend. Not sure how that is the fault of a junior doctor, who is usually working weekends, alongside nurses etc. It's not the basic front line services that stop. You'd know that if you ever spent any time in hospital.

Also I'd rather not have a junior doctor who has worked 90 hours that week, take care of me at a weekend, especially for the wage of 26,000 - 29,000. The junior doctor will do their utmost to take care of me, but sheer exhaustion causes accidental mistakes. Keep the safeguarding for patients in place and don't remove these.

Jeremy Hunt has private healthcare and doesn't give a shiny about the rest of us.

LilacSpunkMonkey

This is an old fashioned trade dispute.

The BMA are trying to fallsely say that their main concern is for the patients.

The BMA keep calling strikes,
so why are you surprised that people are commenting again about this trade dispute ?

I'm not suprised at anyone commenting on it.

I'm surprised at how many threads YOU personally have started about it!

Obsessed much?

Whats this got to do with Feminism chat ? or ist only female jnr doctors that should get back to work or not ? Any way I support them and YABU

50yearsoflife

you mention risk of being sued

a huge problem with the NHS is the culture of cover up, so that the chances of being sued successfully by a patient are not very significant.

Also, Medical Defence Union etc - not cheap - but good value for doctors.

Again, this was not supposed to be feminism chat

Lanchester. I think that jobs that require the level of intelligence, training and dedication, not to mention financial investment that is needed to become a doctor should be well rewarded. Otherwise these people will either go elsewhere (brain drain), or take other easier and better paid careers. In short, we (society) need them. The better off will pay proportionately more as they pay higher tax.

Lanchester - except I post on lots of subjects including but definitly not limited to the health service whereas you seem to predominantly post on this subject.
The BMA balloted it's members on strike action and they (a group of well educated and informed professionals who can read and disseminate information as part of their career skills) overwhelmingly voted to strike. The BMA did what it was supposed to do and that is represent it's members.

Is that you Jeremy?

You have seven days cover of doctors, junior and senior, and nurses, hca, radiographers etc working in the nhs to treat emergencies.

You ALSO have five days worth of all the above working on elective work.

If you want to increase elective cover, you need more people in all of these groups, not just junior doctors, and you have to pay for them.

So that can

1. Increase the bill by having more people employed
2. Decrease the elective cover on the five days we have, spreading it out, potentially making it less safe to have non urgent treatment
3. Decrease the emergency cover throughout the week making the sickest patients' care more dangerous
4. Decrease the emergency cover at the weekend, making that more unsafe (eg trying to get the doctors already working all weekend to do more)

I do wonder how many people will turn up to a truly elective clinic (eg pre-op for minor orthopaedics, stable asthma or diabetic reviews or gynae clinic) at 07:00 or 22:00 on a Saturday?

I would use a service like that knottyknitter as I could fit it round other commitments, plus you would probably get seen more quickly if you were willing to take the unpopular slots. Appreciate I might be in the minority though!

Agree with the rest of your post. I have used a private hospital in Greece and all these services are available 24 hours a day. Everything was just so easy. Probably not realistic for the NHS from a funding perspective but it seemed like health care utopia to me.

You're Jeremy Hunt #trufact.

I suggest you do some reading and fully educate yourself about the weekend issue. You're embarrassingly ignorant.

Oh you can just imagine the Daily Mail sadfacers asked to show up to the hospital at 2am for clinic!

Knottyknitter

are you saying that at present lots of people areoffered truly elective clinic (eg pre-op for minor orthopaedics, stable asthma or diabetic reviews or gynae clinic) at 07:00 or 22:00 MONDAY - FRIDAY?

YABU that's all.