can we reject gender and still be pro female?

[Flingingmelon]

Anyone else have an irrational dislike of all this 'gender is a false construct' talk?

It's been really bothering me recently. Not so much the discussions themselves, rather why I get so irritated in the first place?

I wonder if it's because rejecting gender in some way feels like rejecting the concept of femininity, by that I mean feeling like a woman in the 'traditional' sense of the word.

I'm struggling not to associate it with the idea that we are letting the side down somehow, fighting for women's equality and then turning around and distancing ourselves from what makes us women.

I absolutely believe and agree that how an individual chooses to identify themselves is no ones business except themselves, but it feels like we are throwing the baby out with the bath water somewhat.

Can we be female, be women, be proud of what makes us women and still reject the concept of gender?

I'd love it if someone could help me make peace with this, although I accept that as usual I'm writing far too late in the evening and this is after all, only my problem, no one else's.

Does anyone else feel the same?

But it's not your experiences, or about practices in one company fine, it's about the experience of the class of women as a whole. For each of us individually we may or may not be able to "play the game". I for example was able to take the executive training my organisation offered even though it involved about six weeks in a different city quite easily as dh was a SAHD at the time. For others (male and female) that may not have been possible. There is a strong societal expectation that women should pick up the caring roles (children, elderly parents etc) when needed. Much harder for a woman to say "no" to that than a man.

Perhaps the women in their thirties are all opting out to have babies, or maybe their employers are simply assuming that they will opt out and not giving them the opportunity in the first place. Plenty of women find on returning to work after maternity leave that they are put into undemanding roles with little opportunity to excel despite having "leaned in" all their working lives. They then often drop out of executive type careers because challenging that type of hidden sexism is very difficult.

I think fine has a very good point about the pay gap shooting up in the 30s.

I personally think jobs (executive type ones at least) are far too demanding. You are expected to be available pretty much all the time.

I think there needs to be a huge effort to make more part time positions or job shares available. In as many jobs and pay grades as possible.

I will admit to putting my career on hold at the moment. My kids are quite young.
At the moment I'm choosing to stay in an ok job where I get more time with them rather than move.
A move would mean more money, more travel and the job would certainly be more interesting but at the moment it's more important to me to spend time with my kids - interestingly dh is of a similar mind re his career.

WSWBSWH - I guess what I am saying is that the option of having the always available work all the hours that god sends to try and get to the top, is there for women as well as men. What i see is that more women that men choose to take time out of work for family reasons, in fact hardly any men do it at all.

However, it feels to me (and I may be over simplifying things here) that family and "having the top job" are mutually exclusive. However I don't really feel that women are forced into that role, rather they choose it. I for one wont go to my grave lamenting all the conference calls I missed out on while looking after my kids.

No I'm not sure most women choose not to be promoted.
Most women are assumed they will be the home carer, and are not offered promotion.

Therefore most women (IME) recognise this pattern of being turned down and overlooked, so they back down to allow their partner to pursue the better paid carreer they are unlikely to be granted.

*are assumed to be
sorry

Also it comes back to socialisation. Boys are encouraged to compete and put themselves forwards. Girls are encouraged to look after the team - I know this is a generalisaition, but I often read on here about bright girls being paired at school with a pupil who is struggling so she can help them, at the expense of excelling in her own right.

In the majority of my workplaces, women have filled the entry-level and mid-range posts but the Directors (or equivalent) are almost all men.

In one of those workplaces there was a 'Club' that arranged outings, which only the male members of the workforce could go on. That kind of bonding also helps ambitious men to get on.

Two bits of annocdata

Years ago now i got a new job, 3 women, 3 men all doing the same job (albeit different levels if experience)

We all thought we were on the same money as that was how the job was advertised...the highest paid was male who blagged it, next in various orders were the three women and lastly the last two men

My point being it may be a mistake to assume you are all the same unless you have actually seen payslips

My second example was in the same company, was due to be promoted, got pregnant and was not given the promotion because "i had a child and would be unhappy leaving it for periods of time" Didnt go back after maternity leave