can we reject gender and still be pro female?

[Flingingmelon]

Anyone else have an irrational dislike of all this 'gender is a false construct' talk?

It's been really bothering me recently. Not so much the discussions themselves, rather why I get so irritated in the first place?

I wonder if it's because rejecting gender in some way feels like rejecting the concept of femininity, by that I mean feeling like a woman in the 'traditional' sense of the word.

I'm struggling not to associate it with the idea that we are letting the side down somehow, fighting for women's equality and then turning around and distancing ourselves from what makes us women.

I absolutely believe and agree that how an individual chooses to identify themselves is no ones business except themselves, but it feels like we are throwing the baby out with the bath water somewhat.

Can we be female, be women, be proud of what makes us women and still reject the concept of gender?

I'd love it if someone could help me make peace with this, although I accept that as usual I'm writing far too late in the evening and this is after all, only my problem, no one else's.

Does anyone else feel the same?

If you say that FGM is "gendered", is there ANY sexism you think is a direct result of biological sex?

I don't think any kind of sexism is the direct result of biological sex, because I would take that to mean there is something inevitable about sexism always being the dominant model in society.

I don't think I am interpreting the word gender. I am using it in a specific way that it has been used by feminists for pretty much my entire life.

I can use the word sex role instead of gender, if that is easier to understand?

FGM is a sex role. It is a socially constructed role forced on to women (women meaning people who are biologically female).

That is what I mean by gendered.

I'm still working on an idea that masculinity/femininity are expressions of a complete, well-rounded and balanced individual. Why wouldn't an individual wish to embody what has been traditionally seen as the best of either men or women?

Way back in pre-history, but probably still comparatively recently we took a complete human being, split them in half assigned one half male, the other female and then compounded the sin by denigrating the feminine half, and exalting the male.

Both in terms of society, but perhaps also crucially as individuals we to heal and become whole again. Being pro female is to be pro human.

Way back in pre-history, but probably still comparatively recently we took a complete human being, split them in half assigned one half male, the other female and then compounded the sin by denigrating the feminine half, and exalting the male

I'm really not following this. Any chance you could explain what you mean.

Sexism has its roots in biology - that doesn't mean it's inevitable, but that for many millennia men have used their greater strength and women's role as child bearers to assume and control power and resources. Gender stereotypes are one of the ways this is maintained.

Hermione, yes, I agree. What I am saying is...

Men are usually stronger than women. Women can usually get pregnant and men cannot.

That is sex.

'For many millennia men have used their greater strength and women's role as child bearers to assume and control power and resources.'

That is gender.

I thought gender what about stereotypical expectations of masculinity and femininity - roles and behaviours expected by society as a result of your sex?

I don't have a definition, I haven't studied feminism, it's just my understanding of the term.

What you have described is stereotypical roles and behaviours, isn't it?

It is a stereotypical role that pregnant women are oppressed by society.

It is stereotypical behaviour that in some societies women have their genitals mutilated.

It is a stereotypical behaviour that men take away women's access to resources.

You say that your DH thinks you should be campaigning for better childcare and safer streets.

That's gender-based oppression, right there.

Why is 'better childcare' a woman's issue, not something both of you should care about?

Why isn't educating young men not to rape young women (or other young men) a man's issue?

And surely a large part of why FGM is carried out is because female genitals are considered unfeminine and must be mutilated to fit the feminine ideal?

The same for foot binding, breast implants, labioplasty, tight lacing of corsets?

I understand your position better now, thanks, almond.

I am using gender more in the way the OP did - the first post was about "feminine" behaviours and interests, which of course are voluntary/learned in a way menstruation just isn't..

Yy to imust!

WITW, I do think we are saying very similar things and it is frustrating when language gets in the way!

So yes, menstruation isn't learned, but learning that you must be very discreet about menstruation is, tampons having a pastel wrapper is!, not going to school because you have your period is, being considered old enough for sex just because you menstruate is, society deciding that providing sanitary towels is not a priority is.

These are all learned and constructed ways of treating women, but society could choose/learn/change so that women's role/behaviour position was different.

So much of femininity is to do with specific treatment of the female body, and I think it can often be hard to separate out femininity from the female body, hence autogynephilia, forced feminisation etc.

That is an interesting way of thinking about it. Thank you, I will ponder. Once I have been out for groceries!

Can we be female, be women, be proud of what makes us women and still reject the concept of gender?

I think that any individual woman (in the biological sense) can like all those things that are traditionally being described as "feminine", ie have long hair, wear dresses/skirts and jewellery, prefer the colour pink etc, while at the same time reject the normativity of the gender roles.

I.e. it's possible to like the "girly" stuff on a personal individual level, and at the same time reject the notion that you MUST like that stuff, because you are a woman.

"I thought gender what about stereotypical expectations of masculinity and femininity - roles and behaviours expected by society as a result of your sex?" -yes, but it's not only that. It's also the assumption that your gender is a constant and homogeneous part of your identity, when in fact it is not. A large part of how we see ourselves and our identities is not gendered. You don't e.g. walk to the train station, buy a ticket and get on the train as a woman - but people observing will see a woman doing exactly those things. Have you ever been asked for a 'woman's' input on something and thought "why a 'woman's' input? why not myinput? or a human being's input'?" Gender assigns a fixed identity to us as individuals which does not actually match how we see ourselves. That's what makes it a 'false construct'.

Gender gets us to police ourselves. Wearing pink frilly dresses or playing football is fun and harmless. Any child would probably enjoy them. But accepting the harmless childish aspects sets you up to accept all the other under the radar stuff in adulthood. No man needs to walk up and tell you to wear more makeup . It's already internalised

uglyswan

I find this interesting. There is believed to be, particularly amongst feminists, a "shared experience" of being a woman, a woman will have had experiences a man will not, because she is a woman. We can also assume that men will have experiences that women do not. Hence the solicitation of "women's views" and why many women think men cannot be feminists.

Since female fashion is largely designed to perpetuate females gendered role of "looking pretty" - how many of the posters on here who are so anti gender actually eschew heeled shoes for example, and if not why not ? (sorry to come on here DEMANDING information, but it's an interesting discussion)

I don't wear heels because I'm already 6 foot tall and they don't come in my size unless. I buy them from transvestite shops.

Have fun unpicking the gender implications of that....

itllall - right,interesting dilemma there...I think that on the one hand we can assume that since most women are gendered as such, there's a high likelihood of their having gone through similar experiences and socialising factors and so on. I can get on board with that. But what we can't assume is the extent to which these "shared" experiences shape how they see themselves - they may shape certain behaviour patterns and influence our choices, but they may not play a terribly significant role in how we choose to view our identities, whether we see ourselves first and foremost as women: sometimes, always, or hardly ever at all. The whole shared experience thing is a form of interpellation, but it's not the only form.

And I hardly ever wear high heels because they slow me down and make me feel clumsy, because they don't suit me, because I don't have to and because there is no advantage for me in doing so (ditto skirts, makeup, long hair etc.) "Looking pretty" isn't really on my radar.

For me rejecting "gender" is exactly what you're saying here - that I want to reject the idea that:

a, "pink" things and frilliness and prettiness are the sole remit of women,

and

b, that these things are somehow "lesser".

Interests and preferences should just be that. There is no reason to attach them to what somebody has in their pants.

There is believed to be, particularly amongst feminists, a "shared experience" of being a woman

Is there? (not goady - genuine question).

I don't wear heels cause I can't walk in them but lots of my friends adore their heels. I personally feel better with makeup. I'm very pale and tend to look like the walking dead without it.

I don't wear heels or makeup because I can't be arsed. I like pink among other colours and I sometimes wear dresses, sometimes trousers. I pick and choose the bits of "femininity" I want, which is fine with me.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid - "Is there?" Well, I think there is sometimes. If you talk about menstruation, for example, there is an assumption that all women have gone through similar experiences, especially wrt the whole cultural baggage of hiding and embarassment about your period. Or sexual harassment and assault. When I was a young swan making friends at uni, we all went through this horrible phase of bonding over our experiences of sexual harassment and how we escaped and how it made us feel and pooling advice on how to cope, how to avoid, and where to hit poeple to ensure the greatest effect. And I think we were negotiating a sort of collective identity as women (not a great identity, obviously, but it was better than being left alone with these experiences). But it wasn't a stable identity, is my point, it didn't inform our exchanges with each other and other people all the time, or in the same way.

Itall to answer your question re shoes, -I'm tall enough not feel the need to add inches but primarily I prefer flats as I prefer the speed that I can get around on them.
I am anti gender but that has bugger all to do with my shoe ownership, of which is HUGE!