I have made a most unfeminist decision and I am struggling with it

[PacificDogwod]

I identify as a feminist, but have made a rather unfeminist choice last year that I fully intend to stick with, but am struggling to reconcile with my feminist convictions.

Is that 'allowed'?
Does it make me a hypocrite?? I suspect so.
Is there some validity in believing in certain principles but not living by them when it comes to the crunch??
Can certain principles be right and proper but don't applied in all cases??

I'd rather make this a general discussion than going in to ins and outs of it all wrt to us here - we've got a very good counsellor for that

Ah okay. Well for me, yes that's what feminism means. If a man made a decision that suited him, I don't feel he'd be considering the affect on other men.
Feminism is having the luxury of choice. And no, you're not letting other women down by making a decision to stay, if that is what's right for you.

For what's it's worth, I was in a DV relationship and it took me a long time to leave. I kept on taking him back, and when I finally left I never pressed charges. It could be said that that's unfeminist of me (and it's something I have considered a lot) but I've come to the conclusion that by having the confidence to make decisions that suit me and empower me as an individual, that's not unfeminist. (Don't want to derail the thread with this I just thought it was relevant)

I think what feminism means to people is quite personal and I'm sure some people will disagree with me. But for me, it's about women having the same means, tools and opportunities as men to make the choices and decisions that they decide will benefit them, taking into account whatever they deem important. You have the freedom of choice, and by choosing to stay you don't take that freedom of choice away from another woman

Just because we're feminists doesn't mean we have to personally disadvantage ourselves in order to live by our principles in every case, particularly when there's so much at stake. One big problem we have as women is our conditioning to put the needs of others before our own. Life is short and brutal enough without suffering for the sake of ideals as well when nobody else is being harmed by it. Sometimes pragmatically putting what serves your own personal needs best in the moment is quite feminist enough.

Interestingly I felt similar when I decided to change my name on marriage. It was most odd. At first, I considered whether to do it, and decided to based on (what I still think are) reasons unrelated to sexism, so I felt like this was fine, I had my reasons to do it and I was totally happy with the decision.

Then I did it, and it jarred, and I felt a pull, and now I feel like I'm not allowed to be upset/annoyed that I made the decision to change because I made the decision for totally feminist friendly reasons. Which is bonkers! I mean, what does that even mean? A couple of years on I've finally got around to changing my name on most official things but not all, and it does fit with what I want, but I'm not going to forget my old name and as my childhood best friend says, "You'll always be XXXX to me!" which I like :)

I don't think that you staying in a relationship traps other women in a relationship they are unhappy in. If you went around insisting everyone do the same because look I'm doing it and it's working out so amazingly for me, then that would be different, but I don't get that impression at all.

I also wanted to say that it's okay to feel crappy about a decision you have made. Or not. And just generally to divorce how you feel about it from how "feminist" it is. And also that if you don't want to leave, then don't! As long as you aren't endangering any children by staying, anyway.

In my experience people who are truly unhappy in relationships and don't feel as though they have to stay don't stay for very long. The people who stay just don't see leaving as a proper option for whatever reason.

Tbh OP I think you're intellectualising personal issues. In fact I think feminism is a red herring here.

Other women are irrelevant. The question is whether you're making the right choice for you. And whether you're going about reconciliation in a way that's likely to produce the outcome that you want - which is for your relationship to survive.

Have you required full disclosure and complete transparency as a condition of staying together? Are you confident or do you have proof that a) he's stopped lying b) won't cheat again? Is he determined to do all it takes to regain your trust? Is he prepared to face repeated episodes of anger and resentment from you over the next few years as periodically, these painfully arise from his past betrayal? Does he know you're ready to leave at the merest whiff of lies or infidelity in the future?

To take your question at face value - imo there's nothing essentially unfeminist in staying with a cheat; but there is something unfeminist in surpressing one's own needs, one's own intuitions, doubts, suspicions, capitulating to less than honest terms for fear of the alternative - in that case one's not treating oneself as an equal to a partner but a disempowered subordinate.

As long as you're not doing that, I don't see what the problem is.

Hello, PacificDogwood, I am here, but working with two children and H and I are not reconciled to the point we are living together again (that is still a way off). If I have to leave off posting this, because of DC waking up, I will be back later.

I had a thread on these boards which details the story from my perspective, which was in a quieter place, and posted under my old name (PM me if you want a bit of guidance there). There was no physical infidelity, which seems to be a fundamental difference from the situation you are struggling with (although he was emotionally involved, with a mutual professional colleague, which did not help matters; certainly he was physically and psychologically absent). My first marriage did end because XH cheated, though, which is a whole other saga.

So, I give you my reflections on the two experiences (at this point in time. I agree with the observations made by previous posters that we can, and should, only make choices based on what we know at any given time; and that the crux of the matter is having the independence and means to be able to act differently if needs be - although sometimes with two children as a single parent, I do question the alacrity with which LTB is said on the relationships board - if a man is not committed to his marriage and family, that will not suddenly change if the marriage breaks up; if he is committed to his marriage and family, you have something to work with, either to improve the marriage, or to separate and co-parent amicably)

Okay, I need to come back later, sorry...

Twinkelstein, I agree, I may just be over thinking this or rather over thinking the intellectual or feminist angle of it all.

He is VERY aware just how pissed off, disappointed and hurt I am and just how much the future of our relationship depends on how he behaves while 'on parole' the time period of which is undetermined.
He still does not 'get' that I am more upset about the fact that he chose (repeatedly) not to talk to me about the problems he was having with our relationship but strayed - and that although I too was guilty of not addressing the elephant in the room, I did NOT seek solace elsewhere and therefore he has lost the moral high ground kinda forever. He is quite confused that I have no interest whatsoever in the OW. I don't see how what happened has anything to do with her, she was single and free to do whatever she pleased, HE made bad choices.

We are talking. And having rather brutal counselling sessions together. And making a conscious effort of spending time together without the darling offspring. There may even be the occasional display of physical affection, so onwards and upwards…

I am not suppressing any of my need of mine and I am not staying 'because of the children', but there is no doubt that if all of this had happened earlier in our relationship and with no children it would be easier to make the decision to split.

The name thing is a funny one, isn't it?
As mentioned above, I have 'my' name which I use professionally, took his name as my married name and use that for private stuff (dentist, hairdresser, mother of my children) and stupid double-barrelled name in my passport so at least part of my name is the same as my DCs' last name to make travelling on my own with them easier. I confuse myself sometimes which name I should be using….
Equally the whole title thing - daft!
I find myself not ticking boxes when 'Ms.' is not offered as an option - unless there's 'Mstr.' there as well.
Equally the questions about 'ethnicity' and 'nationality' - v often totally irrelevant and will just end up on some bean counter's statistic.
But day to day, I don't think about it much.

Romii, don't feel obliged to share more of your story than you wish to

To be a feminist you don't have to base your decisions around what's right for women as a whole

Don't you ? At least in a general sense ? We can't always do it and we can't always get it right but shouldn't we at least have that as the underlying principle even if we need to deviate from it some times ? And no, not suggesting that anyone needs to hand in their feminist credentials.

Sorry you've had a rough time, PD.

Hey, PD. The bottom line is it's easier for a man to leave given the social and financial structures of our western worlds. My ExH left when our DCs were only 3 and 5.

I do wonder if that puts us on the back foot.

You say you could manage on your own. And I did manage - I had to. But dear god my career went down the pan pretty damn quick.

Hope you are ok.

OP, I doubt there is a single feminist alive who hasn't compromised their credentials at least once on a big thing in their life, along with lots of other little things.

Are you sure it's your feminist radar that is troubling you, not that deep down you think you should leave DH?

I've never really thought about my relationship issues from a feminist point of view. My dh also cheated, and I also decided against kicking him out. At the time because I wanted him to be the one that chose to leave the family - it was more about me being a)very angry and b)wanting the high ground (and a bit of c) not wanting him to go too in all honesty.

I have always been financially independent and could perfectly well have managed with him completely out of the picture - in fact I'd probably have been better off with a complete break. Everyone I told about the cheating told me to leave/kick him out, but I was quite stubborn - a bit of a control thing too perhaps.

Anyway we did end up splitting for a while and then got back together after a couple of years. I liked that it was a positive choice to do so, and now would advocate separation as something to consider (if you can afford to do it without major stress all round).

I think looking back some of my actions were feminist (unleashing my inner anger for example) and some were not (being way too passive before I had enough proof of infidelity). I think we modeled to our children that you can get through dark times to happier ones, and that's not a bad thing.

Yes, I do think it is easier for a man to leave his family - not easy, but less hard.

Christine, any number of things are troubling me , I just wanted to make this thread about the feminist angle. I remain uncertain about where we are going as a couple.

nooka, I very much identify with your points a. and b., not so much c. - but I did want him to have the guts to leave, and not me to be the one who 'threw him out' IYSWIM.
With hindsight, I should have maybe made him go, even for a while, but I really hated the idea of him either with OW or in a cushy hotel room while I was at home with kids/house/dog/etc etc. So, I left - just over night, stayed at a friend's who fed me lots of wine, handed me tissues, moped my snot and tucked me in to bed eventually

If nothing else, this whole sorry thing has taught me to value and look after my female relationships more. The sisterhood rocks

Oh, yes, Blistory, I agree with you. Yes, I think our individual choices are important for the bigger picture.
But in the same way I know that too much cake is not good for me, I don't always make the right choice, but that does not mean I don't a. know what healthy eating is and b. I won't keep trying

PacificDogwood, don't worry, I don't feel obliged. I am just sorry it has taken me so long to post, and I didn't want to just tap out something quickly on my (rubbish) phone. And, I hope this is not unhelpful, I am glad that I was not able to just yet, as I think your most recent posts are probably more to the point as to why you feel uneasy. At least as I would read the situation.

The general point is whether you should stay in a marriage when your spouse has cheated on you, from a feminist perspective. As others have said, it is the issue of active choice to stay which is important, and that seems to be one you are making; because on balance, there is enough good in your marriage that you think, presuming you continue to work together and spend time together and address the previous issues in the marriage, you have something to stay for. That is a reasonable position, because marriage is fundamentally about partnership; and feminist marriage (if there is such a thing) is about being an equal partner in that marriage.

What would stick in my jaw is this bit:

He still does not 'get' that I am more upset about the fact that he chose (repeatedly) not to talk to me about the problems he was having with our relationship but strayed - and that although I too was guilty of not addressing the elephant in the room, I did NOT seek solace elsewhere and therefore he has lost the moral high ground kinda forever. He is quite confused that I have no interest whatsoever in the OW. I don't see how what happened has anything to do with her, she was single and free to do whatever she pleased, HE made bad choices

Romii, thank you for taking the time and making the effort to post . And I am glad you have found a way forward with your DH.

I think you've pretty much summed my position up really well.

Our 'brutal' counselling sessions have been really good tbh; we've had joint and individual sessions and I think he has understood that I am not prepared to go back to how we were. I suspect he will always be a bit communication-disabled if I may use that phrase - he comes from a proud tradition of a family using dysfunctional way of talking to each other (silent treatment, sarcasm, passive-aggression etc etc - he is actually not bad compared to how is late mother was and his siblings can be…).

Oh, I also meant to say I am hoping and intending to teach my DCs (all boys) that it IS worthwhile investing in to a relationship, that what their father did is NEVER justifiable and that they need to learn to consider the consequences of their actions - they are a bit young to have any inkling of the complexity of adult relationships tbh, but not to learn about respect and honouring promises made and good communication habits.

Blis I think I would disagree with you.

'What would be the best thing for men as a whole, I shall do that', said no man ever when we was deciding what to do about his own relationship, or anything else.

For me, feminism is about empowering women so that they have the same choices men have had for generations. To stay in a marriage, or not. To arrange their working life to suit them, to feel entitled to enter any career, pursue any hobby, and so on.

To say that women have a collective responsibility to live their lives according to feminist principles seems to me to be in direct conflict to that. Because still the women isn't free to make her own choices, she has to consider the entire female half of the population. How is that so different to putting yourself down the pecking order from a man?

PD I've always thought you sound like a smart, sensible, grounded woman. Your DH should be on his knees to keep you, IMHO.

Hmmm.

I can only really speak for myself and say that I, as an individual, do feel that I have a responsibility to all women. To those who went before and to those who have yet to come. Maybe that comes from the luxury of knowing that I have a voice, that I have a very privileged position both in my industry and in my economic position and being aware of these positions and the advantages that it gives me, I do feel obliged to use the power (?) that it affords me.

I do think that women shouldn't keep quiet, particularly when it comes to sexual and domestic violence so yes, I do think there's a collective responsibility that feminists have to use their voices and speak out. I know that at my most vulnerable point as a woman I didn't have a voice and still don't over that particular aspect so was overwhelmed and grateful that others spoke for me and that their actions supported me even when it cost them.

Is it a duty ? I don't think I'd go that far but that's primarily because I am aware that not all women can always live by feminist principles nor is it always safe and that doing so can come at great personal costs. But shouldn't we at least examine whether each occasion affords us an opportunity to either set an example or help other women ?

And as for choice, I don't think women will ever have the freedom of choice while we still have the levels of inequality that we do so for me, that's a bit of a moot point.

There has to be more to feminism than just online debate or theory, there has to be real practical application of it because, let's face it, if it isn't us doing it, who will be ?

And I'm sorry if that's all a wee bit idealistic but having seen some of the absolute twattery on here in recent weeks from women hating women, yes, I think feminists need to speak up on behalf of women even if it means taking a bit of heat.

Should the OP stick by her feminist principles in determining her marriage even if it means the end of it ? That's a balancing act and I think there's enough freedom in feminism to allow her to get the balance right. The very fact that she's examining and questioning it all is probably her feminism in action. Just because the outcome might seem to the outside world to be a traditional one doesn't mean that the path to get there hasn't been a feminist one.

Oh, I think we are talking a little at cross purposes. I absolutely speak up for other women, am bringing up my sons to consider women their equal on all levels. I'm not suggesting we should only be feminists inside our heads, not at all. I challenge sexism wherever I find it, even if it draws unwelcome attention.

But with something as personal as a marriage, I think you have to make the choices for yourself, not womankind in general.

I don't know in all honesty. None of us live in true isolation so every decision affects others and I think that more often than not, that needs to be considered.

And I don't think it's wrong that women consider others and sometimes put those needs first. What I do think is wrong is that we don't hold men to that standard. I don't want to see feminism throw out some of the very things that women get right which is to care about others and to show compassion and empathy. But nor do I want women consigned to always having to think about others at their own cost. I do think that bringing a feminist perspective to bear on a personal issue will generally result in a better balance being achieved.

And as much as I'd like to say that your marriage , your life, I look at surrendered wives for example and can't help myself from thinking that while it might work for them as individuals, what message does it give to others about women ? Does it do harm on a greater level ? I accept that it may simply be none of my business but then there wouldn't be much of a Mumsnet if we all kept our thoughts to ourself.

If I sound conflicted, it's probably because my liberal and radical beliefs are in a wee bit of a fight with each other over this. So far neither side is winning.

Oh my, it took MN to show me that I am probably more of a radfem than I ever thought, but yes, also a liberal (with a small 'l') and wishy-washy leftie type person who gets all uncomfortable at the suggestion that anybody should have the right or duty to tell anybody else what to do, think or how to behave - v conflicting thoughts and emotions there.

Which is why I started this fred - not for any of you to sort my relationship shit

I would hate for anybody who knows me/us to think that I am somehow complicit in his behaviour because I am apparently 'tolerating' it by not leaving or making him leave- a. it has stopped (he knows that he has used his ONE 2nd chance) and b. for some reason I see value in investing some time and effort in a relationship that has been ongoing for 22 years and has seen us through more than one difficult situation.
I am hoping that I am doing what I am doing out of position of strength and not weakness, and that I am not deluded in thinking that.

Alibaba, thank you

I strongly agree that if individual women are not looking out for all of our rights, then who will?? Particularly white, 'rich' (in the context of worldwide wealth distribution) and well-educated (in the context of worldwide education of females) woman like so many of us here.

The very fact that she's examining and questioning it all is probably her feminism in action.

Here's hoping, Blis

I think you are part of the eternal sisterhood of women that have taken crap from men and kept going, time immemorial. Sad, but true.

I am not disagreeing with you there, what.

I was pondering this thread today, whilst reflecting on my own recent non-feminist decision (work / career related). And I thought that we have managed to create yet another stick to beat ourselves (and other women) with if we try to insist that every facet of our lives must be true to feminist ideals. Well fuck that.

Though Blistory has said it much more eloquently....