I have made a most unfeminist decision and I am struggling with it

[PacificDogwod]

I identify as a feminist, but have made a rather unfeminist choice last year that I fully intend to stick with, but am struggling to reconcile with my feminist convictions.

Is that 'allowed'?
Does it make me a hypocrite?? I suspect so.
Is there some validity in believing in certain principles but not living by them when it comes to the crunch??
Can certain principles be right and proper but don't applied in all cases??

I'd rather make this a general discussion than going in to ins and outs of it all wrt to us here - we've got a very good counsellor for that

[RomiiRoo]

I have not read 'The politics of breastfeeding'; and probably wouldn't, as the breastfeeding/bottlefeeding threads in various places put me off ever discussing it for life. Ditto anything about working mothers/SAHM etc. I actually don't feel the need any longer to justify my choices against the choices of other women; if men are not held to the same standard. However, I need to be morally and ethically comfortable with them; and over the years, I have realised that to be morally and ethically comfortable, I have to reconcile the caring, nurturing part of me with the part that says you have the opportunity/ability for a great career, take it.

So, the latter point is really why I have been having this discussion with myself (and trying to work out how on earth the current phase on feminism has come about, but there are enough threads about that).

I don't know how H and I will end up long term, I really don't. I am working with forgiveness in my meditation practice just now, because I don't want to carry around any more resentment about things that have happened (not only relating to him, but elsewhere in my life). So, I thought I would share this sentence which really resonated with me in light of thinking these things through:

"forgiveness is not about helplessly accepting, giving up, surrendering to defeat, being weak, or avoiding the cost of justice. It is about how you hold in your heart a terrible wrong while you act in the world to correct that wrong and try to prevent it from happening again". - See more at: dharmawisdom.org/teachings/articles/forgiving-unforgivable#sthash.MWWTRzap.dpuf

[nooka]

I think that one of the most important things that I discovered during my difficult days was that if you reach out for help you will get it in spades. I was so supported by some wonderful women and it made such a huge difference to me (some lovely guys too, but the women connected in a different way often with shared experiences which made me feel so much less alone and vulnerable). I have in small ways been able to reciprocate, and discovered that that too was empowering and special. I don't know if that's about expressing feminism or just being part of community, but either way it made me feel that my experiences had some positive aspects as well as the truly shitty ones.

[PacificDogwod]

Oh flip, Romii, it's post like yours that bring home to me how utterly ignorant I am of feminist theory and the huge amount of reading I would have to do to catch up - thank you so much

NB. I am an avid reader but have kinda gone out of my way to avoid anything overtly feminist as I don't think I could cope with The Rage
This is after 'The Politics of BFing' almost gave me apoplexy.

Neoliberalism (in a more general political context) can fuck right off.
I do NOT believe that we should all be free to make whatever choice we feel like at whatever cost to others/society - and that applies to men and women. I am not sure how that translates to feminism, but in principle I believe in 'Love thy neighbour as thyself' and I mean that in an entirely non-religious way: Be kind to yourself and others, forgive your mistakes as you strive to forgive others, and do the right thing by yourself and others. Sometimes hard to reconcile...

[RomiiRoo]

The problem, if you like, with neoliberal 'choice' feminism is that it assumes that the playing field is level. It is not for income and socially ingrained child rearing attitudes and responsibility (as well as personal responsibility); but 'choice' feminism ignores that, it serves the market by repackaging choice in market oriented ways (the market would benefit from you separating and setting up two homes, paying legal fees etc).

In your case, you have the choice to take the latter course as you can afford to serve the market (such a choice would be valid if you wished, yes). However, it is not liberal : the liberal feminist position for the good of women would be to fight the inequality which means all women cannot exercise the 'choice' which you can, if that makes sense.

The radical feminist position would be to fight oppression at grassroots level to dismantle the ingrained structures of privilege which allow inequality to flourish.

Within that, there are plenty of ways not to compromise your values whilst working through the issues in your marriage. Pick your battles. Your energy may be better spent finding some activity which works for the broader good of womankind, whilst actively re-shaping your marriage towards equality. There are many different ways to crack an egg.

The issues women face are not whether you choose to stay or go - they are how we actually create conditions where that is an actual, real choice for all women.

Yes, I am over-analysing, so I stop now. Of course, you need to advocate for yourself before you can advocate for anyone else, but you know best how to do that.

Will stop now...

[RomiiRoo]

Sorry, all of that should have come with the caveat - as I understand it, not that I am imposing my perception

[RomiiRoo]

I'm wondering about this, because I am not sure how radical and liberal and left are being conceptualised in this discussion.

Liberal feminists, if we take first wave feminism and subsequent liberal action in the 1970s, was about using the legal framework to create conditions of equality. Thus, in your situation, PD, this means that the legal framework exists so that you could, if you so wished, leave your marriage, access divorce, and expect an equal split of assets and an equal consideration of your case in family law (in practice this doesn't work, given the cuts in legal aid and the income disparity between men and women which still exists - but the liberal response here is surely to fight those cuts and income inequality, i.e. in legal term and political terms).

Radical feminism is about challenging the inherently gendered social norms within which we operate (in a more practical, on the ground manner), so in terms of marriage, it was about addressing issues of domestic violence, rape (within and outwith marriage), sexual discrimination and the gendered expectation that women were the mothers and homemakers etc. I am not sure which radical feminist publication (and I am taking second wave here, if you want to go back to the roots) ever said the only feminist response to adultery is to leave the marriage. The feminist response would be not to accept/ignore/condone - which to take the OP, PD, you have actually taken a very active position in responding in light of your own circumstances; and you are challenging accepted gender/social roles (by being financially independent, by holding the behaviour to account, by standing true to your own values (I need to come back to this, because it doesn't necessarily involve your DH having to agree with you).

The whole 'choice' view of liberal feminism is third wave neo-liberal feminism. To quote Nancy Fraser, neoliberal feminism is 'divorced' from social solidarity - thus, the whole 'choice' neoliberal conceptualisation of feminism is about women having access to the same goods, behaviours, choices as men (in a free market, capitalist economy). It it is a very recent capitalist view of feminism - the whole 'choice' agenda is neoliberal, it is not liberal. There is nothing you are doing, if one views it like that, PD which inhibits women from making a different choice.

If you want to think about the left as social solidarity, then you could argue that by challenging social norms within your marriage, you are challenging the position of women. It depends what you do when you stay in a marraige (or in Nooka and my experience, what you do when you start to reconcile). DS is climbing over me, so I hope that makes sense...

[nooka]

PD I don't know how far down the line you are, but I'd say it took my dh at least a year to come to terms enough with his behaviour enough to really properly apologise. Realising that you are not the good person you always thought you were, but actually capable of deeply selfish and unpleasant behaviour is I think quite hard if you are generally a normally nice kind of person. Easier to excuse your behaviour and deflect instead.

[ChristineDePisan]

I was pondering this thread today, whilst reflecting on my own recent non-feminist decision (work / career related). And I thought that we have managed to create yet another stick to beat ourselves (and other women) with if we try to insist that every facet of our lives must be true to feminist ideals. Well fuck that.

Though Blistory has said it much more eloquently....

[PacificDogwod]

I am not disagreeing with you there, what.

[whattheseithakasmean]

I think you are part of the eternal sisterhood of women that have taken crap from men and kept going, time immemorial. Sad, but true.

[PacificDogwod]

The very fact that she's examining and questioning it all is probably her feminism in action.

Here's hoping, Blis

[PacificDogwod]

Oh my, it took MN to show me that I am probably more of a radfem than I ever thought, but yes, also a liberal (with a small 'l') and wishy-washy leftie type person who gets all uncomfortable at the suggestion that anybody should have the right or duty to tell anybody else what to do, think or how to behave - v conflicting thoughts and emotions there.

Which is why I started this fred - not for any of you to sort my relationship shit

I would hate for anybody who knows me/us to think that I am somehow complicit in his behaviour because I am apparently 'tolerating' it by not leaving or making him leave- a. it has stopped (he knows that he has used his ONE 2nd chance) and b. for some reason I see value in investing some time and effort in a relationship that has been ongoing for 22 years and has seen us through more than one difficult situation.
I am hoping that I am doing what I am doing out of position of strength and not weakness, and that I am not deluded in thinking that.

Alibaba, thank you

I strongly agree that if individual women are not looking out for all of our rights, then who will?? Particularly white, 'rich' (in the context of worldwide wealth distribution) and well-educated (in the context of worldwide education of females) woman like so many of us here.

[Blistory]

I don't know in all honesty. None of us live in true isolation so every decision affects others and I think that more often than not, that needs to be considered.

And I don't think it's wrong that women consider others and sometimes put those needs first. What I do think is wrong is that we don't hold men to that standard. I don't want to see feminism throw out some of the very things that women get right which is to care about others and to show compassion and empathy. But nor do I want women consigned to always having to think about others at their own cost. I do think that bringing a feminist perspective to bear on a personal issue will generally result in a better balance being achieved.

And as much as I'd like to say that your marriage , your life, I look at surrendered wives for example and can't help myself from thinking that while it might work for them as individuals, what message does it give to others about women ? Does it do harm on a greater level ? I accept that it may simply be none of my business but then there wouldn't be much of a Mumsnet if we all kept our thoughts to ourself.

If I sound conflicted, it's probably because my liberal and radical beliefs are in a wee bit of a fight with each other over this. So far neither side is winning.

[Alibabsandthe40Musketeers]

Oh, I think we are talking a little at cross purposes. I absolutely speak up for other women, am bringing up my sons to consider women their equal on all levels. I'm not suggesting we should only be feminists inside our heads, not at all. I challenge sexism wherever I find it, even if it draws unwelcome attention.

But with something as personal as a marriage, I think you have to make the choices for yourself, not womankind in general.

[Blistory]

Hmmm.

I can only really speak for myself and say that I, as an individual, do feel that I have a responsibility to all women. To those who went before and to those who have yet to come. Maybe that comes from the luxury of knowing that I have a voice, that I have a very privileged position both in my industry and in my economic position and being aware of these positions and the advantages that it gives me, I do feel obliged to use the power (?) that it affords me.

I do think that women shouldn't keep quiet, particularly when it comes to sexual and domestic violence so yes, I do think there's a collective responsibility that feminists have to use their voices and speak out. I know that at my most vulnerable point as a woman I didn't have a voice and still don't over that particular aspect so was overwhelmed and grateful that others spoke for me and that their actions supported me even when it cost them.

Is it a duty ? I don't think I'd go that far but that's primarily because I am aware that not all women can always live by feminist principles nor is it always safe and that doing so can come at great personal costs. But shouldn't we at least examine whether each occasion affords us an opportunity to either set an example or help other women ?

And as for choice, I don't think women will ever have the freedom of choice while we still have the levels of inequality that we do so for me, that's a bit of a moot point.

There has to be more to feminism than just online debate or theory, there has to be real practical application of it because, let's face it, if it isn't us doing it, who will be ?

And I'm sorry if that's all a wee bit idealistic but having seen some of the absolute twattery on here in recent weeks from women hating women, yes, I think feminists need to speak up on behalf of women even if it means taking a bit of heat.

Should the OP stick by her feminist principles in determining her marriage even if it means the end of it ? That's a balancing act and I think there's enough freedom in feminism to allow her to get the balance right. The very fact that she's examining and questioning it all is probably her feminism in action. Just because the outcome might seem to the outside world to be a traditional one doesn't mean that the path to get there hasn't been a feminist one.

[Alibabsandthe40Musketeers]

Blis I think I would disagree with you.

'What would be the best thing for men as a whole, I shall do that', said no man ever when we was deciding what to do about his own relationship, or anything else.

For me, feminism is about empowering women so that they have the same choices men have had for generations. To stay in a marriage, or not. To arrange their working life to suit them, to feel entitled to enter any career, pursue any hobby, and so on.

To say that women have a collective responsibility to live their lives according to feminist principles seems to me to be in direct conflict to that. Because still the women isn't free to make her own choices, she has to consider the entire female half of the population. How is that so different to putting yourself down the pecking order from a man?

PD I've always thought you sound like a smart, sensible, grounded woman. Your DH should be on his knees to keep you, IMHO.

[PacificDogwod]

Romii, thank you for taking the time and making the effort to post . And I am glad you have found a way forward with your DH.

I think you've pretty much summed my position up really well.

Our 'brutal' counselling sessions have been really good tbh; we've had joint and individual sessions and I think he has understood that I am not prepared to go back to how we were. I suspect he will always be a bit communication-disabled if I may use that phrase - he comes from a proud tradition of a family using dysfunctional way of talking to each other (silent treatment, sarcasm, passive-aggression etc etc - he is actually not bad compared to how is late mother was and his siblings can be…).

Oh, I also meant to say I am hoping and intending to teach my DCs (all boys) that it IS worthwhile investing in to a relationship, that what their father did is NEVER justifiable and that they need to learn to consider the consequences of their actions - they are a bit young to have any inkling of the complexity of adult relationships tbh, but not to learn about respect and honouring promises made and good communication habits.

[RomiiRoo]

PacificDogwood, don't worry, I don't feel obliged. I am just sorry it has taken me so long to post, and I didn't want to just tap out something quickly on my (rubbish) phone. And, I hope this is not unhelpful, I am glad that I was not able to just yet, as I think your most recent posts are probably more to the point as to why you feel uneasy. At least as I would read the situation.

The general point is whether you should stay in a marriage when your spouse has cheated on you, from a feminist perspective. As others have said, it is the issue of active choice to stay which is important, and that seems to be one you are making; because on balance, there is enough good in your marriage that you think, presuming you continue to work together and spend time together and address the previous issues in the marriage, you have something to stay for. That is a reasonable position, because marriage is fundamentally about partnership; and feminist marriage (if there is such a thing) is about being an equal partner in that marriage.

What would stick in my jaw is this bit:

He still does not 'get' that I am more upset about the fact that he chose (repeatedly) not to talk to me about the problems he was having with our relationship but strayed - and that although I too was guilty of not addressing the elephant in the room, I did NOT seek solace elsewhere and therefore he has lost the moral high ground kinda forever. He is quite confused that I have no interest whatsoever in the OW. I don't see how what happened has anything to do with her, she was single and free to do whatever she pleased, HE made bad choices

[PacificDogwod]

Oh, yes, Blistory, I agree with you. Yes, I think our individual choices are important for the bigger picture.
But in the same way I know that too much cake is not good for me, I don't always make the right choice, but that does not mean I don't a. know what healthy eating is and b. I won't keep trying

[PacificDogwod]

Yes, I do think it is easier for a man to leave his family - not easy, but less hard.

Christine, any number of things are troubling me , I just wanted to make this thread about the feminist angle. I remain uncertain about where we are going as a couple.

nooka, I very much identify with your points a. and b., not so much c. - but I did want him to have the guts to leave, and not me to be the one who 'threw him out' IYSWIM.
With hindsight, I should have maybe made him go, even for a while, but I really hated the idea of him either with OW or in a cushy hotel room while I was at home with kids/house/dog/etc etc. So, I left - just over night, stayed at a friend's who fed me lots of wine, handed me tissues, moped my snot and tucked me in to bed eventually

If nothing else, this whole sorry thing has taught me to value and look after my female relationships more. The sisterhood rocks

[nooka]

I've never really thought about my relationship issues from a feminist point of view. My dh also cheated, and I also decided against kicking him out. At the time because I wanted him to be the one that chose to leave the family - it was more about me being a)very angry and b)wanting the high ground (and a bit of c) not wanting him to go too in all honesty.

I have always been financially independent and could perfectly well have managed with him completely out of the picture - in fact I'd probably have been better off with a complete break. Everyone I told about the cheating told me to leave/kick him out, but I was quite stubborn - a bit of a control thing too perhaps.

Anyway we did end up splitting for a while and then got back together after a couple of years. I liked that it was a positive choice to do so, and now would advocate separation as something to consider (if you can afford to do it without major stress all round).

I think looking back some of my actions were feminist (unleashing my inner anger for example) and some were not (being way too passive before I had enough proof of infidelity). I think we modeled to our children that you can get through dark times to happier ones, and that's not a bad thing.

[ChristineDePisan]

OP, I doubt there is a single feminist alive who hasn't compromised their credentials at least once on a big thing in their life, along with lots of other little things.

Are you sure it's your feminist radar that is troubling you, not that deep down you think you should leave DH?

[LineyReborn]

Hey, PD. The bottom line is it's easier for a man to leave given the social and financial structures of our western worlds. My ExH left when our DCs were only 3 and 5.

I do wonder if that puts us on the back foot.

You say you could manage on your own. And I did manage - I had to. But dear god my career went down the pan pretty damn quick.

Hope you are ok.

[Blistory]

To be a feminist you don't have to base your decisions around what's right for women as a whole

Don't you ? At least in a general sense ? We can't always do it and we can't always get it right but shouldn't we at least have that as the underlying principle even if we need to deviate from it some times ? And no, not suggesting that anyone needs to hand in their feminist credentials.

Sorry you've had a rough time, PD.

[PacificDogwod]

Romii, don't feel obliged to share more of your story than you wish to