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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

I'm am sitting in a coffee shop

52 replies

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 13/01/2016 18:02

Discreetly observing a group of one man and three women. The man is totally holding court with three (younger, natch) women gazing at him. Occasionally one interjects with a comment and Man responds. At one point one woman started talking animatedly and Man started a conversation with the woman closest to him. It's really interesting and infuriating at the same time.

OP posts:

Grimarse · 13/01/2016 20:24

No. As I said, I don't doubt you. I am wondering if feminist analysis has theories on why some men are affected, and some are not. We are all subject to the same influences.

vesuvia · 13/01/2016 20:24

Mide7 wrote - "I think it's interesting that your first thought is male socialisation and not one of the hundred other reasons a man could be holding court with 3 women."

Where on this thread has the OP indicated that male socialisation was her first thought and that she had not already assessed the likelihood of the hundred other reasons?

PalmerViolet · 13/01/2016 20:26

All men are affected by patriarchy.

Some men succeed within it, others don't.

This might be why patriarchy sucks arse for everyone.

Mide7 · 13/01/2016 20:35

Well Ves that was my conclusion from what the Op wrote. They didn't write "at first I thought the man was trailing his new monologue on his friends but after I continued listening..." And that she hasn't given any other explanations. Happy to be corrected tho.

Original poster

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 13/01/2016 21:16

It was my first thought because it was glaringly obvious, to me.
Grim, the effects of patriarchy and gender socialisation aren't the same for everyone. If you are a male who 'fails' at being macho, physical, tall, broad, strong, hirsute, wealthy etc that is going to have an impact on you in a different way to the male who grows up believing he's the best and most interesting person in the room, especially if that room is full of women.

OP posts:

Grimarse · 13/01/2016 22:18

What kind of make specimen was he, Obs? A typical alpha male? More Tony Soprano, or Brad Pitt?

PalmerViolet · 13/01/2016 22:37

Alpha male?

Oh dear lord...

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 13/01/2016 22:41

I think it's pretty well documented in sociolinguistics that a mixed gender group will tend to not only result in men talking more but also in male topics being chosen.

I've often seen women apologise for talking about girlish things in front of men.

QueenLaBeefah · 13/01/2016 22:48

I know exactly the scenario you are talking about. Some men really like to hold court and drone on whilst doing it.

Grimarse · 13/01/2016 22:52

What is wrong with the phrase 'alpha male'? It encompasses all the characteristics of the boorish, domineering character that the OP referred to in her post at 21:16. If it isn't the correct phrase, then my bad. I saw Dr Melfi use it in The Sopranos many years ago to refer to Tony, so I assumed it was an accepted descriptor.

QueenLaBeefah · 13/01/2016 22:53

Alpha males are not the only men who pull this stunt.

Grimarse · 13/01/2016 22:54

You can't use that phrase, Queen - Palmer doesn't like it.

TheWomanInTheWall · 13/01/2016 22:55

"All men are affected by patriarchy.

Some men succeed within it, others don't.

This might be why patriarchy sucks arse for everyone."

Yeah. Can we just sticky this at the top of FWR?

QueenLaBeefah · 13/01/2016 22:57

I always use alpha male as short hand for total wanker.

Grimarse · 13/01/2016 22:58

It is indeed the calling card of a twat.

QueenLaBeefah · 13/01/2016 23:04

I had one male boss who was dreadful for this type of behaviour (he wasn't alpha - just had the job because he'd been there forever). I could just about tolerate it at work (brown nosing really does pay off) but our team once went to the pub and he was exactly the same. Infuriating and I always avoided socially interacting with him again.

Original poster

ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight · 14/01/2016 05:31

I thought alpha male behaviour is in relation to other males. I don't think this guy was any kind of top dog, just a man who believed his contributions were more interesting and important than all the women's contributions which isn't particularly 'alpha' behaviour.

OP posts:

CaptainWentworth · 14/01/2016 07:59

Theydontknow I've noticed that also about male topics being chosen in a mixed group. A really glaring example that happened recently was when I was in a meeting with a client, a more junior member of her team and two senior guys from my team (I was at the bottom of the food chain here). We were ostensibly there to 'impress' her (for want of a better word; she was the person we were reporting to) but as she and I were the only women, we seemed to be powerless to intervene when the conversation turned into a protracted discussion between the three men about the prospects of the local football teams- neither she or I were able to get a word in edge ways for some time. I remember catching her eye and we were both clearly thinking 'wtf?'!

PalmerViolet · 14/01/2016 08:12

I thought alpha male behaviour is in relation to other males.

It is. Mostly in chimpanzees and other animals. Or among the bottom feeders of the world, like PUAs.

However, as I said, this thread has been illuminating.

Grimarse · 14/01/2016 11:24

Captain, what line of business are you in? I am curious as to why your female client is reluctant to rein in her male apprentice. My boss would have made mincemeat of me, and of your colleagues. Hopefully this may also provide more wattage for Palmer's light-fest.

WilLiAmHerschel · 14/01/2016 11:56

I remember when I was at sixth form which was mixed sex (after attending a single sex secondary school) a teacher pointed out that many of the girl pupils would tilt their head at an angle slightly (in a coy way) when talking to a boy rather than looking directly at them. I probably am not describing it very well but I noticed that she was right but I didn't do it. So I started making an effort to do it! I think her message was lost on me a bit at the time!

CaptainWentworth · 14/01/2016 12:08

Grimarse financial- this was a public sector client. I couldn't really call the guy an apprentice- he's much older and more experienced than me, just less senior than her. He does love a chat though in general! He is lovely actually so feel a bit bad using him as an example. Feel more annoyed with our partner- he's v old school and likes to feel he's great at client relations- as log as they went to the right school and like football, golf or rugby...

NeverEverAnythingEver · 15/01/2016 10:27

Just yesterday a man walks in to the tea room at work and mansplained despite having other women around who are more senior than him and have more interesting things to say.

And the male topic thing is interesting. At parties I've been to, men gather round and talk computers and the economic situation. Women gather round and talk computers, economic situation, advantages and disadvantages of having a dog, supermarket shopping, the theory and practice of learning to play a musical instrument, the best way to cook asparagus, the diverse ways of bringing up children etc etc. I know which group I'd rather join!

StealthPolarBear · 15/01/2016 10:36

I see this on trains a lot

G1veMeStrength · 15/01/2016 10:44

I see this a lot too. Depressing isn't it.

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