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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

I just gave the amazon delivery man a little lecture on the meaning of 'Ms'

80 replies

StealingSleep · 14/12/2015 13:24

I don't usually care too much if people assign me the wrong title, but he specifically asked, then put miss instead of ms on his gadget, so I corrected him. He seemed confused and asked why not Miss? So I explained that generally people took Miss to mean unmarried, Mrs to mean married, and that Ms means it's none of your business, just like Mr doesn't announce a man's marital status. He still seemed confused and seemed to think that Miss and Ms were interchangeable. But by that point he'd finished tapping on his gadget and I was getting cold so I left it. I hope something sticks though!

To be clear, he seemed genuinely interested to get it right, I don't normally give lectures on my doorstep :)

OP posts:
Lanchester · 14/12/2015 14:57

It is nowadays common for people in positions of Authority to sign themselves off as
Best wishes, Anne or
Kind regards, Anne

it can be a sort of false mateyness,

and you might well not want to take part in that by replying "Dear Anne".
So by forcing you to use the distinctly un-matey " Dear Ms. Xyz" to address them
they are making you seem prissy and as if you have in some way rejected their (in fact false) friendly overture.

So in the above original email, Anne failing to provide her preferred formal title would be an annoyingly manipulative thing to do if it was done intentionally.

LauraChant · 14/12/2015 14:58

I write for a magazine which uses "Ms" for all women quoted and Mr for all men. Eg Laura Chant did not change her name when she got married. "I couldn't be arsed," explains Ms Chant.

It's basically so you don't have to quiz every female you interview as to their marital status. I have had one person complain that I got her name wrong though - I thought I had mis-spelt it but it turned out it was because of Ms not Miss. I thought at the time she was being a bit weird, I hadn't realised until now that some people think there is a "connotation" to Ms or that they are not sure what it means.

vesuvia · 14/12/2015 15:07

ImperialBlether wrote - "Whenever I say "Ms", people say "Oh, you're divorced.""

The genie is well and truly out of the bottle on this mistaken belief, but I see no prospect of this rubbish about "Ms must mean a woman is divorced" ever being corrected across society, especially since it has been splattered across the Internet.

Lanchester · 14/12/2015 15:12

If a person wants to be addressed as Ms that's absolutely fine of course.
The point is that they should not give conflicting signals as to how they wish to be addressed.
As StealingSleep and also the OP say, the use of "Ms" is indeed making the statement that "you dont need to know"
and therefore in Replying using
Dear "Ms".Xyz there is an automatic perceived and real reduction in empathy in the communication, right then and there.

aginghippy · 14/12/2015 15:15

I get the 'you're divorced' thing too. I usually just smile and nod, usually cba to explain. I have been divorced, but never changed my name, have always been Ms Hippy.

stealthsquiggle · 14/12/2015 15:18

I did change my name (it was 20 years ago, I mildly regret it and wouldn't now) but still opt for Ms Marriedname because I see no reason why random-recipient-of-form needs to know my marital status. I have explained this so many times to so many people, some of whom get it (including my 9yo DD who concluded that she would opt to keep her own name if she got married) and others really, really don't.

The people it really confuses are my continental European colleagues, where you seem to change from Melle to Mme, or Fräulein to Frau, automatically at some age and it is therefore not a reliable indication of marital status anyway.

Lanchester · 14/12/2015 15:20

I suppose the question can be asked then
surely it is sexist to address someone as
Mr
or as
Ms
We are all people
why should people have information as to our gender?

slug · 14/12/2015 15:56

Frankly. I tend not to be quite as polite as the OP. I once had quite a heated conversation in the bank when I insisted on Ms. Finally I asked the young gentleman in question why he thought it was so necessary for the bank to know my sexual availability. The implication of course is Miss = not married and therefore available on the marriage market.

This floored him somewhat.

Original poster
StealingSleep · 14/12/2015 16:09

I think if I had had to argue my case like that I would have been less than polite too slug. Well done. Luckily he was quite happy to put Ms, he just didn't understand why.

OP posts:
grimbletart · 14/12/2015 16:35

I also ask people who query the Ms signatory..why, if it is necessary to indicate a woman's marital status is it not necessary to indicate a man's, and conversely, why if it is not necessary to indicate a man's marital status is it necessary to indicate a woman's?

They usually don't answer. Because there is no logical answer.

vesuvia · 14/12/2015 17:59

VestalVirgin wrote - "Ms is so difficult to pronounce."

Making Ms sound different to Miss is not the easiest thing in the English language. Miss is easy - we can just say the whole word that has a simple sound with no hidden vowels to improvise. But for the sound of Ms we have to consider if we should insert a breath or a short 'i' between 'M' and 's', and should the 's' be 's' or 'z', and should it be 'miz' or 'mizzzzzzzzzzz', etc.

Mr and Mrs would be more difficult to pronounce if they were pronounced on the same basis as Ms. I suppose Mr would sound something like 'mir' and Mrs like 'mirss'. But, of course, that isn't the case because Mr is pronounced as 'mister', derived from master, and it's the word rather than its abbreviation that is spoken. Similarly for Mrs with its pronunciation like 'missis', representing a shortening of mistress. A problem with titles for women is that Mrs, Miss and Ms all started as contractions of mistress, and it seems that there just aren't enough easily pronounceable variations on mistress to go around.

I like the title Ms. and I use it for myself, even though I'm sick and tired of being asked to justify it to other people, on an almost daily basis.

vesuvia · 14/12/2015 19:19

I exaggerated. I'm asked to justify the use of Ms regularly, but it can sometimes feel like almost daily. Wink

ShortcutButton · 14/12/2015 21:41

I am toying with adopting Mx
And look manly enough to cause doubt, I think
M

sashh · 15/12/2015 08:32

Like women are still being categorised.

But mostly straight women who marry. No one expects gay couples to change names, or men in straight relationships, yest straight women.

BTW I'm a supply teacher, in colleges I'm known mby my first name but I am increasingly working in secondary schools. Obviously kids want to know my name and that leads to a debate on why I'm Ms not Miss or Mrs.

I might try Mx with them sometime.

ChocChocPorridge · 15/12/2015 08:41

Well, if someone's being falsely matey in a business letter then it's even better - it's a clear signal of tone to use their title or use their first name that actually I think is quite handy given the lack of face to face-ness to convey your feelings on the matter non-verbally.

somesortofmagic · 15/12/2015 08:46

This drives me mad too, still can't quite understand why we even need categorical titles in this day and age - would just using names really be so hard - ie, you get a letter to B Smith rather than Mr or Mrs Smith? Might be a slight problem for referring to teachers but apart from that would be much more sensible. Or my personal favourite would be ditch the whole 'married/unmarried' categorisation and switch to the continental idea of referring to gender - we could call men Sir and women Lady which would sound brilliant and would annoy the country toffs too, win-win! Then everyone just has to decide which gender they're going with (having more than 2 options is fine though) and it's sorted, no questions of marital status needed.

mamas12 · 15/12/2015 08:55

Yep I've had this for years too.
One of my favourite responses in shops when they ask is to ask which title gives me the discount as there must be an economical reason why they're asking. It confuses them until I have to explain it is Ms.

MyrtleFox · 15/12/2015 09:00

I remember years ago, trying to order clothes from Blooming Marvellous, about 2001 (?) and they only had Miss, Mrs, Mr & Dr. I rang up and gave out to them. Told them I couldn't order from them. A pregnant Ms just couldn't happen.

SomeDyke · 15/12/2015 14:03

No one expects gay couples to change names
Weirdly enough they do, but most people only asked the question after we had converted our civil partnership to a marriage! Apparently civil partnership/gay marriage didn't set off the 'change name' alarm for most people. But a 'real' marriage did!

Also confuses people since they don't quite know which name they thought we should take! Combining didn't work (we had unfortunate combinations whichever way round), double-barrelled sounds pretentious. What, should we just swap? Would confuse relatives, let alone anyone else!

....and finally then I needed wanted to keep my unmarried name because otherwise my academic citations get complicated.

Which brings us back to Ms (and the sex question), I'll admit I now mightily enjoy the use of Dr, since it indicates neither my sex nor my marital status (except in germany where Frau Doktor used to be the correct form of address). Although I did once get left at the side of a road by a rental agent because they admitted they didn't think I could be the Dr.

I'm surprised that so many people men are confused by Ms, when I was younger it was already old hat. But 'Miss' for teachers was still obligatory, whether married or with a doctorate................

SomeDyke · 15/12/2015 14:09

would just using names really be so hard

Actually, I get really annoyed in my local famous-name coffeeshop when they demand to know my first name to scribble on a mug! That name is for people who know me, not any idiot in the street or in a shop.

We could use just surnames, but then it would sound like we were all living in a second-rank boys public school............

So works for me if we have two names, the surname+title which is usually enough to identify you uniquely in a group, even a family group, and then the first name for people who actually know you. I don't wantb strangers knowing my full name, it just feels wrong and far too intimate. You don't know me, so don't call me that! I'll have to invent a fake one for the coffeeshop, it really does annoy me..................Napoleon perhaps?

RufusTheReindeer · 15/12/2015 14:56

somedyke

Please use 'some dyke' in the coffee shop

tribpot · 15/12/2015 15:08

Yes, either 'some dyke' or 'Napoleon' would be classic.

slug · 15/12/2015 15:34

Dyke Try "taxpayer" given the coffeeshop in question is well known for paying little if no corporation tax.

stealthsquiggle · 15/12/2015 15:42

A colleague of mine used to use a "Starbucks name" because his was too hard to spell and he CBA to have to spell it out. Until he used it at an airport coffee shop, went on through passport control, complete with coffee, and the passport guy said "why is the name on your coffee different from the name on your passport?" Grin

SomeDyke · 15/12/2015 15:57

Perhaps I should just say 'No'.

Except I then had a James Bond moment, and thought that 'Dr No' might not be totally appropriate..........

......plus I haven't got my secret nuclear reactor and underground lair quite sorted yet, still waiting for a few bits from amazon, oddly enough...............