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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

"Falling" and "accidentally penetrating" somebody is a rape defence now.

199 replies

BertieBotts · 10/12/2015 18:40

WTAF?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/i-fell-and-penetrated-her-by-accident-millionaire-rape-suspect-claims-a6767486.html

Hopefully - surely - this will never go down in court, right? How ignorant of basic biology would you need to be, exactly? I've heard of some ridiculous defences to rape before but this really takes the biscuit.

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 16/12/2015 14:24

I was witness in a rape prosecution once, and they had hours of legal deliberation in private - without the jury even present.

Legal deliberation of that nature is not evidence. There is nothing unusual in the defence and prosecution debating purely legal matters in private with the judge. The jury is not meant to hear it.

Evidence being taken in private is not the same. Both sides hear it and can cross on it and the jury hears it.

Room101isWhereIUsedToLive · 16/12/2015 14:45

This has utterly utterly depressed me. I am meant to be going out shopping for presents for my kids but now all I want to do is hide under my duvet all day. Sad

Radiatorvalves · 16/12/2015 14:53

This does sound really odd. However, without knowing all the facts and being present as a member of the jury, I wouldn't want to allege that there had been a miscarriage of justice. 12 members of the public clearly thought that the man was not guilty of rape. We don't know why. I've been on a jury, I've been on a court martial board, I am a lawyer, although most of my knowledge of criminal law comes from crime fiction... I think that there will be an explanation for this verdict, but we just don't know it.

Room101isWhereIUsedToLive · 16/12/2015 14:59

But in order for justice to be seen to be done, that information needs to be accessible, so why isn't it?

VestalVirgin · 16/12/2015 15:14

Of course he was. He's a millionaire.

I feared that would happen. Angry

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 16/12/2015 15:52

But why was the evidence taken in private - does anyone know?

The only times I thought this happened was to protect the identity of a child, or for National Security.

AyeAmarok · 16/12/2015 16:22

Can't imagine this happening for Joe Bloggs, rapist, can you?

Sadly, I can imagine it, yes.

However, I can't imagine a (gay) man tripping and falling and his erect penis landing in a (straight) man's arse, getting away with it.

Because for some reason it's only women whose rapists have their crime mitigated by the fact they were drinking/dressed provocatively/secretly wanted it. If a man is raped, it never is suggested to be his own fault.

noblegiraffe · 16/12/2015 19:55

I just can't think of any way to make this make sense except for the 'private evidence' being a massive bribe.

I hope some other explanation comes out.

Thingschangingagain · 16/12/2015 20:00

I am genuinely astonished at this. I thought the jury would laugh at him. I really hope there was something the jury heard to make sense of this that wasn't reported in the papers. Because it sure as hell just seems like another 'well she got wined and dined and must be a slapper ' type injustice.

VestalVirgin · 16/12/2015 20:19

I just can't think of any way to make this make sense except for the 'private evidence' being a massive bribe.

Some people even believe in the moral superiority of rich men of high status if they are NOT bribed. Maybe they subconsciously hope to be rewarded for their loyalty.

ScrambledSmegs · 16/12/2015 20:32

I'm not surprised. Wish I was but I'm not. I've done jury service and the convoluted knots the other jurors would tie themselves into to make it into the victim's fault defied belief.

The biggest problem was that most people seemed to believe that we needed CSI-type evidence otherwise it never happened Hmm. And even then the police probably planted the evidence because they're all out to get poor honest people Hmm. Oh, and I bet you a hefty amount of money that the jurors thought that she'd somehow brought it all on herself, because you know what teenage girls these days are like...

I wish what I wrote there ^^ was fiction and not based on my own experience. Jury duty is great at turning you into a cynic.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 16/12/2015 20:58

just can't think of any way to make this make sense except for the 'private evidence' being a massive bribe

Are you seriously suggesting 12 jurors, the defence and prosecution teams, the judge and the court ushers all took a bribe ? The evidence was heard by the jury.

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 16/12/2015 21:07

I can't quite bring myself to believe it was an actual bribe - more that money buys a lot of power, contacts, legal representation and effectively a get out of jail free card.

Movingonmymind · 16/12/2015 21:17

Scrambled - that is really sad. and hopefully not typical?
not read much on the case but it seems a ridiculous defence, couldn't make it up! Eve was indeed framed...

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 16/12/2015 21:17

But why was the evidence taken in private - does anyone know?

The only times I thought this happened was to protect the identity of a child, or for National Security

Not just a child. It can be done for any vulnerable witness. I can't imagine what the vulnerability is here. The Crown would have had an opportunity to object to this.

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 16/12/2015 21:32

I've just done a bit of googling while watching the apprentice and I cannot find any clue as to why he was given this 20 mins evidence in private. Just that is reportedly happened.

It does make you think - WTAF is going on?

ScrambledSmegs · 16/12/2015 22:01

Movingon Well judging by the experiences of a few friends who also did jury service, at completely different courts in other parts of the country, it's not an isolated instance Sad

startrek90 · 16/12/2015 22:06

This has made me so fucking angry. I have never felt like this before. I have been exploring feminism but had (till now) not been angry. That poor poor woman. I feel for her. She had incredible courage just reporting it and now this? I am so furious. Angry I just don't know what to do...

TesticleOfObjectivity · 16/12/2015 22:18

I just found out that he got away with it. Sad

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 16/12/2015 22:38

An FOI request has been made.

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/transcript_of_the_court_case_of

AyeAmarok · 16/12/2015 22:43

Does it have to be released under a FOI request, and if, would it include the "private 20 minutes"? Or would that be redacted?

WhoTheFuckIsSimon · 16/12/2015 23:18

I don't think it would come under the remit of a FOI request.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 16/12/2015 23:27

I think court transcripts are exempt but don't quote me on that.

BeezerBubble · 16/12/2015 23:37

Absolute exemption for court records under FOI act section 32 (court records)