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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Falling" and "accidentally penetrating" somebody is a rape defence now.

199 replies

BertieBotts · 10/12/2015 18:40

WTAF?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/i-fell-and-penetrated-her-by-accident-millionaire-rape-suspect-claims-a6767486.html

Hopefully - surely - this will never go down in court, right? How ignorant of basic biology would you need to be, exactly? I've heard of some ridiculous defences to rape before but this really takes the biscuit.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 12/12/2015 20:13

Lweji - ha!

OP posts:
OneMoreCasualty · 12/12/2015 20:18

There are a heck of a lot of defence lawyers out there; I would be surprised if a few aren't sociopaths, but don't think it'll be a statistically significant variation.

TheDowagerCuntess · 12/12/2015 20:22

The lawyer that I just linked to was involved in the defence of a man who went into the bedroom of his ex-girlfriend, locked the door, stabbed her 216 times while her mother was in the other side forced to listen to it all, and claimed it was manslaughter, not murder.

Luckily the jury didn't buy it. But the young woman's reputation was completely dragged through the mud in the process while this man laughed in the courtroom, in his bid to get away with murder. I remember at the time wondering how you could live with yourself, defending such a person...

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/12/2015 20:53

I would find it hard to motivate myself to put much energy in defending such an asshole. Would probably go with whatever he tells me to do, too. (As he is so obviously guilty, I wonder whether the defence team lack any sense of ethics, or whether they shower two hours each evening and will have to get therapy for their feelings of guilt when it is all over.) I would find it hard to motivate myself to put much energy in defending such an asshole. Would probably go with whatever he tells me to do, too. (As he is so obviously guilty, I wonder whether the defence team lack any sense of ethics, or whether they shower two hours each evening and will have to get therapy for their feelings of guilt when it is all over.)

I wonder how many people said similar about The Birmingham Six or Stefan Kiszko?

An accused in the UK is entitled to a trial and the Crown has to prove its case. The defence team are there to put the accused's version no matter how implausible. They will advise an accused to plead guilty where it seems likely to them that continuing to maintain a not guilty plea is likely to result in a higher sentence.

Your response to this will probably be but the Birmingham 6 and poor Stefan Kiszko
were different.

You cannot glibly say , why motivate yourself to take his case?

Where do you draw the line on accused who deserve to get legal representation and those who don't?

OneMoreCasualty · 12/12/2015 20:59

And if the defence were visibly lacklustre on the case in court, might it not provide potential grounds for appeal?

slugseatlettuce · 12/12/2015 21:02

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AyeAmarok · 12/12/2015 22:20

Dowager Shock

That poor family.

Sad Honestly I hate this world sometimes.

feelingcrossagain · 13/12/2015 08:27

Well I 'd rather live in a world where everyone gets a defence rather than one where some people don't because others have decided they are wanks who don't deserve it.

sashh · 13/12/2015 09:42

Lawyers have to cope with the risk that a rapist walks free because they did their job.

Their job is a defence, not getting someone off.

Laurece Lee has talked quite a lot about his most infamous client, Jon Venables

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/james-bulger-remembered-paddy-shennan-3322337

Floppityflop · 13/12/2015 09:58

Unfortunately the problem with the rule of law is that you are innocent until proven guilty. It is unethical for a barrister to refuse to defend someone who has instructed them just because of what the barrister thinks. Obviously things take on a different shape if the client actually confesses. Ridiculous defences are a more nuanced ethical problem if they aren't properly arguable. (Is your alibi that you were abducted by aliens? If so, are you actually fit to stand trial?)

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/12/2015 10:32

Unfortunately the problem with the rule of law is that you are innocent until proven guilty.

There is nothing unfortunate about that nor is it a problem.

vesuvia · 13/12/2015 11:51

LassWiTheDelicateAir - "Where do you draw the line on accused who deserve to get legal representation and those who don't?"

Although, in some legal systems, a barrister's scope for picking and choosing who to represent may be limited due to the "taxi rank" first-come first-served principle, my line would certainly include a "no hugging or kissing" rule, because your question has prompted me to recall that scene of Julian Assange hugging and kissing his barrister Helena Kennedy.
metro.co.uk/2011/02/07/wikileaks-prosecutor-marianne-ny-is-biased-against-men-637572/

OneMoreCasualty · 13/12/2015 12:03

That's a professional behaviour line, though, nothing to do with legal representation.

Plus I'm sure many professional women have been kissed by men in a work situation when they would've preferred not to be!

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 13/12/2015 13:09

I don't follow your point Vesuvia

Helena Kennedy's personal behaviour has nothing to do with the fact it's not up to you or Vestal or anyone else to determine whether an accused person deserves to get legal representation or not.

vesuvia · 13/12/2015 14:06

When I was referring to "my line", I accept that I didn't make it clear that I meant my line that I wouldn't want a client to cross, from a personal behaviour point of view. I'm also aware that this point is not about whether a person should be legally represented or not.

VestalVirgin · 13/12/2015 14:44

I never said the asshole shouldn't have legal representation. I quite like how the law system works.

I still wouldn't want to defend him, because he's an asshole, and I pity any person with a conscience who has to defend him because he has a legal right to it.

As for it not being a lawyers job to make sure his rapist client walks free, well, in that case US judges must be very eager to let rapists walk free.

In a sane world, a defense lawyer could in good conscience defend an asshole like this millionaire because they could be sure that there is no way the man doesn't go to prison.

However, as long as the victim's lawyer and the judge grew up in a rape culture, there is a high risk that a rapist walks free.

originalmavis · 13/12/2015 14:48

A friend worked in a hospital. You be amazed how many people do housework in tbe nude or go up step ladders without pants on and fall backwards into fruit bowls or light bulbs.

I read the OPs case in tbe paper yesterday and had to check it wasn't April 1st.

sashh · 15/12/2015 08:38

A friend worked in a hospital. You be amazed how many people do housework in tbe nude or go up step ladders without pants on and fall backwards into fruit bowls or light bulbs.

That's why, back in the day, the radiographer's party was the one to go to, they saved the best X-rays (And always had a wide selection of alcohol) for the party.

A goldfish is incredibly clear on an X-ray.

originalmavis · 15/12/2015 09:01

Now there's a charity calendar I'd buy.

JoanFerguson · 15/12/2015 19:06

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OneMoreCasualty · 15/12/2015 19:17

Ok, aye, now we can despair.

originalmavis · 15/12/2015 19:22

How? Just how? When I read about this in tbe paper even his lawyer sounded incredulous at this defence.

QueenLaBeefah · 15/12/2015 19:28

I knew he would get off. How many rich men end up in prison?

BarbarianMum · 15/12/2015 19:29

Sad I'll get to angry later. That poor, brave woman.

JoanFerguson · 15/12/2015 19:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.