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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Do you ever change your behaviour to avoid harrassment/sexism?

49 replies

DraenorQueen · 08/11/2015 20:48

Today a friend unexpectedly announced he was popping in, meaning I had to dash down Co-op and grab some wood and coal so said friend wouldn't freeze. In the shop there were 4 or 5 scruffy old blokes who were absolutely hammered arguing with the till assistant who wouldn't sell them alcohol. They looked filthy and were staggering about and generally had no intention of going anywhere.

I knew, I just KNEW that if I queued up I'd get some kind of harassment (am fat but with big breasts) so I stood at the far end of the shop pretending to browse. After a few minutes I though fuck this - I had 2 10Kg bags of coal to drag home so why the hell was I having to waste my time? I took my bags and queued up quietly and, predictably, two of the blokes made horrible comments about my size and a third made a delightful "head between my tits" gesture. All very unpleasant but they eventually moved away from the till, still arguing, and I got served.
Not the worst thing to happen, no, but it just pissed me of off that I KNEW it was going to happen and I had to change my behavior because of it, and when I didn't I had to accept the inevitable abuse. Does this kind of thing happen to anyone else? Does anyone else have to alter they way they act to avoid this shit from idiots??
Apols for length, just wanted a grumpy ramble and to hear others' thoughts!

OP posts:
PreemptiveSalvageEngineer · 08/11/2015 21:02

I do sometimes, and hate myself for being such a wuss every time. In the situation you describe, I would have probably done the same and fantasised about punching them in their stupid fucking faces.

VestalVirgin · 08/11/2015 21:30

I usually avoid drunk men, too, yes. If a group of men remotely looks like they'd harass someone, I stay away.

My tolerance for sexism is pretty low, so I have cut some social contacts because the men were too sexist and I really didn't have the nerve to try and talk them out of it.

PreemptiveSalvageEngineer · 08/11/2015 21:47

That's another good point, vestal . Although, for me it's also "how much time do I have to waste?..."

paulapompom · 08/11/2015 21:47

I am always aware of what clothes I wear if I have to walk anywhere alone where I may pass groups of men. I was very harassed a couple of times passing pubs. I hate that i think like this and we should all wear what we like, but it's stuck in my memory

Original poster
DraenorQueen · 08/11/2015 21:50

I really appreciate these comment. I was fairly sure others must do the same. It's ridiculous really, isn't it? It just makes me think of those misguided anti-rape posters which choose to focus on the actions of the victim and made me wonder how far the "But you should have..." "But why didn't you..." "but you must have known..." line can go.

OP posts:
Original poster
DraenorQueen · 08/11/2015 21:52

And paulapompom interesting you said you consider your clothes when you have to walk alone past groups of men. Funny how the number of comments made seems to drop drastically when you're accompanied by a man...!! Angry

OP posts:
EnthusiasmDisturbed · 08/11/2015 22:29

yes

I have big breasts I can not hide them and I do not want to but I often wear a scarf and cover it right across my chest or move my arms up and pretend to scratch my face, push hair aside to block cleavage view when I know I am going to be leered at

I have crossed the road

moved seats on the tube/train and bus

I walk with smaller steps so my boobs do not bounce as much and hold my head less high so I can avoid eye contact

i think i got so used to going into making myself less visable mode from such a young age it is the norm for me now

7Days · 08/11/2015 22:38

yup me too. Only just aware of it lately. Got a new job a few months ago, customer facing role, smart dress but no code as such. It's not like I was dressed up for a night on the pull but I have been looked up and down several times in my brand new work clothes and now I wear baggier stuff which hides my shape more.

It's shit because I can't 'fight' them iyswim, because I'm alone and a representative of a bigger organisation and you can't articulate the difference between a leer and a look, and a comment vs a 'comment'. I'd be a trouble maker in my new job.

All I wore was slim cut trousers and fitted, not tight, tops with a cardi if neccessary, or skater style dresses to the knee with no cleavage on show. Just to let you know I do know what's appropriate for a work environment.

MommysNotTalkingToday · 08/11/2015 22:40

I am a bit overweight. When I jog I sometimes wear clothes that cover me up, in order to avoid potential comments, even though I would be physically more comfortable wearing less. I avoid jogging down certain roads and stay in the better lit areas because I imagine if I was attacked I would be criticized for being in the wrong place.

Other days I wear lycra and a vest and go wherever I please, but I don't always feel brave enough.

MyNameIsInigoMontoya · 08/11/2015 22:53

I would be very surprised if there is any woman who hasn't ever done this, even if she doesn't remember or admit to it.

Things like putting my most flint-faced, looking-straight-ahead serious running expression on and making sure to keep my speed up when running past a certain pub with outdoor tables, having eyes in the back of your head when dealing with certain men in certain jobs (flashbacks to my youthful waitressing days....), doing the stompy don't-fuck-with-me walk when going through town at night...

It is shit having to do it, and also shit that you still don't always avoid the aggro.

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 08/11/2015 23:17

Am i completely odd that i don't feel at all harassed or intimidated by these sort of comments?
Now groups of teenage girls giggling i am sure they are laughing at me for some thing i have done that goes against the 'rules'

PlaysWellWithOthers · 09/11/2015 08:59

Yes PAQ, I think you probably are odd.

I don't know a single woman who hasn't modified their behaviour, dress, travel routes and many other things in order to avoid being cat called or harassed. Women who have been catcalled in one spot, such as a dear friend who was repeatedly cat called from a building site, avoided going down that road even though it meant adding a fairly long extra walk onto her trip to the station in the morning.

Women do this partly to avoid yet another unpleasant experience from men and partly because we all know that, should anything happen, one of the first questions you will be asked is, "If you knew that X had happened there before, why did you go there again?" A neat form of both social control and victim blaming.

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 09/11/2015 09:16

But has cat calling ever turned into anything else?

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 09/11/2015 09:25

what if the cat calling has not turned into anything else so what

it is still at times for many women intimidating

other times it might just be annoying

either way it is not acceptable that a woman walking down the street is subjected to this

Psycobabble · 09/11/2015 09:43

I have crossed over the street to avoid groups the odd time but this could be men or women to avoid anti social behaviour ie they looked like a group of aggressive drunk knobs . But as for changing behaviour to avoid sexism I can't think of any specifically were I have pre empted it and changed my behaviour though I have reacted when stuffs happened. Iv told a few leery entitled sexist pigs with there lewd comments to fuck off and I also punched a guy in the mouth for grabbing my boobs in a pub ( I'm aware I sound very agressive I'm not bit sometimes you just have enough and the boob grabber was not the first bloke to have done something like that to me !)

Did he actually touch you op or was it a gesture he made regarding your boobs ?? Because it would probably wipe the leery discusting grin of his face if he found himself on a sexual assault charge

PlaysWellWithOthers · 09/11/2015 10:36

But has cat calling ever turned into anything else?

For me? For the rest of womankind?

How many women, including myself have been followed by men who've cat-called us and not given the response they wanted? Why do you think those men follow women?

Does every cat call have to turn into something else for you to acknowledge that it is intimidating?

Psycobabble · 09/11/2015 10:45

Well exactly and even if it doesn't turn into something else there is the knowledge that it could and of course just the point that it's disgusting and annoying in the first place !

TwoTwoOneBravo · 09/11/2015 10:56

Thinking about it, I modify my behaviour all the time to avoid unwanted attention. It's pretty much instinctive.

I cross the road, modify my route, change my seat on trains and buses, keep my head down, avoid eye contact, wear a concealing coat and a scarf. I still get catcalls and comments occasionally though. I find them intimidating and upsetting. Not surprising really though - that's their intention after all isn't it?

Borka · 09/11/2015 12:18

For me the cat calling turned into a rape threat. After that I changed my route, so I don't know if it would have turned into actual rape.

slug · 09/11/2015 12:20

But has cat calling ever turned into anything else?

Are you trying to say that it's OK to put up with being sexually harassed because at least we aren't being raped?

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 09/11/2015 12:22

Does every cat call have to turn into something else for you to acknowledge that it is intimidating?

This is a really aggressive response, to what was meant to be a polite request about risk, and trying to understand why it is intimidating.
I am at risk from a bunch of drunk guys the same as a bunch of drunk women from assault.
If guys do actually leave building sites after cat calling and follow people around then i might have to add it to list of stuff i actually worry about (well now i am invisible 40 not really).

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 09/11/2015 12:25

Are you trying to say that it's OK to put up with being sexually harassed because at least we aren't being raped?

No, that is a stupid exaggeration based on my comment, i understand annoyed, irritated, disgusted, revolted but that isn't the same as intimidated, intimidated is a fear response and i just don't see why it is scary.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 09/11/2015 12:32

I was in no way being aggressive to you, and I think you know that. While I'm very happy for you that you've never been in a situation where you have felt intimidated, this is not the experience of the majority of women. I actually find you trashing the lived experience of the majority of women fairly aggressive... and not passively so.

Perhaps you might now address the rest of my comments, without resorting to hyperbole?

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 09/11/2015 12:35

it can feel scary when you are on your own and there are a group of men woman are far more at risk from attacks from men than from other women

it can feel scary when you yourself are in an emotional place that makes you feel vulnerable

it can feel scary because that is the intent to intimidate, to humiliate these comments are not about making you feel good it is done to belittle you and prove to you who is in the powerful position

Elendon · 09/11/2015 12:39

Intimidation is wearing a catholic school uniform and finding yourself being harassed because of it (and cowering in Woolworths because you know you're going to get it) - I was born in Northern Ireland. BTW, there is still little change now regarding integration in secondary schooling.

Intimidation is being big breasted and having to put up with being harassed (and cowering in the corner of the shop because you know you're going to get it).