Jack Monroe on being non-gender binary

[IShouldBeSoLurky]

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2015/10/being-non-binary-i-m-not-girl-called-jack-any-more-i-m-not-boy-either

I've got a lot of time for Jack and Jack's brave stance on poverty and honest approach to discussing it. I also think the the taunting Jack came in for when the Daily Mail took agin Jack was appalling (but then the DM treats everyone appallingly if they thing it's going to get them clicks).

But this article... I don't know. It seems to me it would all be SO much simpler if one were able to say, "I was born a girl and given a girl's name which I later changed. I'm a lesbian and a mother and proud of both those things. And I don't feel it's necessary for me to perform gender, because I think the things I enjoy like pushing weights and wearing high heeled shoes sometimes shouldn't be gendered things."

Instead we have this tortuous charade of writing copy that's confusing because individuals want to be referred to by a plural pronoun, and the massive shenanigans about deadnaming (of course it's offensive, but no more so than calling a woman by her husband's surname when she hasn't actually changed her name) - some of it might be bigotry but some might just be confusion. And some of it, like referring to the Olympic medalist as Bruce, not Caitlyn, Jenner, is just factually accurate.

I was talking to DP about it earlier and saying that almost all languages (all, maybe? I don't know) have been structured with gender as pretty fundamental, because when language was developing, a person's biological sex WAS significant in a way it perhaps isn't, or shouldn't be, now. What if language just wasn't gendered at all (eg if the phrase "Ladies and gentlemen..." were never used), and it was only necessary to refer to a person's biological sex when it was fundamental to the subject (eg pregnancy and childbirth)? What if we were all they/zhe/something else?

I'm sure this has all been gone over multiple times on here, but I find it so difficult. Part of me wants to give Jack the respect Jack deserves, and part of me is like, "Look, lots of us aren't comfortable with gender roles. Stop making out that you're some special snowflake who gets misgendered at every turn." And then I think maybe I'm just as out of touch and carmudgeonly as people who insist it's fine to call gay people "queers".

What do others think about all this?

I read some of this and thought, well that's like me. If pushed, I would say I have a non-binary gender, because that seems to be where I fit within the terminology that is used. I don't feel female and I don't feel male, I have interests that are both stereotypically female and stereotypically male but I just see them as 'my interests'.

It's the jump from non-binary gender to being neither a woman nor a man that I don't understand. But I presume this is where gender dysphoria comes into it, a feeling of 'wrongness' for want of a better phrase, which I don't have.

But reading it makes me feel more strongly that gender is bollocks, and think why can't people just wear what they want to wear and do what they want and call themselves whatever they want and anyone who thinks someone is not ladylike or manly enough can just fuck off. It's not trans people that should feel they have to change, it's the rest of society that has the problem. I just want to say 'it's not you, it's them. And actually yes, you are a special snowflake, don't change yourself to try and fit in with their crappy boxes'. Having said that, I do accept that life is easier if you conform in some way.

Here's the thing; calling a boy a "girl" is a major insult. If a man calls another man a "woman" he's mocking him. The female gender are objects of daily ridicule.

So in light of this, some women would say, well the pronoun "she" should be regarded as an honorific, women shouldn't be ashamed of the fact they are subject to constant shame and ridicule for being female. And so "she" can't be interchangeable or equal to "he". It means something entirely different.

Now, whether we wear high heels or not or "think like a man" (whatever that means--- women are bright articulate and frighteningly intelligent, which is "thinking like a woman" as far as I'm aware) should've have any influence on the "she".

All it means is there are lots of different kinds of "shes" in this world.

I don't feel female and I don't feel male, I have interests that are both stereotypically female and stereotypically male but I just see them as 'my interests'.
Isn't almost everyone "non-binary" in this case? It seems like some of the only people who are truly binary about their gender are transgender people

Thanks Burrito :)

Interesting idea sakura and all your examples are misogyny but it does happen to other groups too. Deliberately calling someone the wrong pronoun (and I mean wrong by what they designate themselves) it is always meant as an insult.

For example, I've been referred to as "he" on threads where a poster has tried to rubbish me instead of disagreeing with me. It happens a lot on Mumset where (arguably) the default and dominant assumption is that posters are women.

Of course it must happen to some groups more than others and in different contexts and to different degrees but I cannot think of a single occasion where someone deliberately chooses to address someone by the "wrong" pronoun to be anything other than to insult and/or hurt someone. And that's regardless of the sex or gender of the people involved.

Bad behaviour and disrespectful treatment of others is always wrong and doesn't diminish the lived experience of others who may have slightly different experiences with the same intent to hurt, belittle and insult.

By own your identity I mean you get to choose how you present to the world and what name and pronouns people use to address you because that is your right as an individual

I don't agree with this at all. I am obviously a woman no matter how I "present" and society treats me as a woman, a member of the female class. I don't choose that any more than I chose my name nor how the English language uses pronouns to identify male or female.

So you're ok because you conform to the norm and never mind any body else who might be different eh Flora?

Just out of interest have you ever been married Flora? And did you change your surname? Or your title (eg Mrs)?

Eh? How did you get that from what I said? I look like a woman no matter what I am wearing. That is not "conforming to the norm" it is a reflection of the fact that a person's sex is generally obvious as a result of their biological sex characteristics. I don't get to choose this.

My point is that your statement about owning identity is nonsense. The statement has no meaning.

In your opinion. I happen to disagree.

As the person doesn't get to decide I am going to refer to you with the "wrong" pronoun. I think I will choose "it" for you. Because your wishes are irrelevant and mine are more important; that is essentially what you are saying. The old "I'm natural, you're unnatural" argument that gets used until society cops on (see gay rights etc etc).

Gender is not innate like sex btw, it's a social construct.

If anyone could explain that to it better than me I would be grateful

Im quite happy for Jack to feel however Jack feels, and to respect their feelings about their identity.

I wont pretend to understand it, nor do I have a massive desire to wish theyd shut up and simplify something thats obviously important to them.

I think in time, with increased knowledge, it will just become naturally simpler, and im really happy for people that are finally being able to put a name on how they have always felt, instead of living a lie, becoming mentally unwell, or topping themselves, which I think is what has tended to happen in the past.

I dont believe that sex or gender is binary. I dont feel like im particularly female, apart from a general feeling of unsafeness and vulnerability, but i am sure thats not what being female is supposed to be about.
I also dont feel shit about being female or identified as such either, so I cant relate to how transgender people feel. Im happy to believe them though and try and adjust my language when its appropriate to do so.

I don't feel female and I don't feel male, I have interests that are both stereotypically female and stereotypically male but I just see them as 'my interests'.
Isn't almost everyone "non-binary" in this case? It seems like some of the only people who are truly binary about their gender are transgender people

Well, pretty much, yes.

What intrigues me is how Jack's experience differs from being a transman, because on a fundamental level (other than not wishing to adopt male pronouns) there isn't much that differentiates Jack from a transman.

Although, as a lesbian in a committed relationship (although I'm not sure if Jack is still in a relationship) and a mother, it must be very difficult to declare oneself male because then you'd need to redefine your most cherished relationships.

Anyway, just thinking aloud.

It does seem to me as if this 'non-binary' business is a byproduct of increasingly strict demarcations of what is or isn't gendered behaviour. Like it starts with boys' and girls' EVERYTHING being either pink or blue, and just develops from there. So anyone who just feels like 'meh, I'm just me, I don't feel very strongly anything' has to make a big palaver about being non-binary.

Surely we could achieve the same effect by just having less rigid ideas about what it means to be male or female?

I think I will choose "it" for you.

Fine but since I am female I am not an "it" and you will look foolish.

Because your wishes are irrelevant and mine are more important; that is essentially what you are saying. The old "I'm natural, you're unnatural" argument that gets used until society cops on (see gay rights etc etc).

No. Some things have a material reality, like sex, and others are a matter of psychology expressed in behaviour (eg being a lesbian). Being a lesbian is not unnatural. Just because people in the past thought one thing was wrong which we now disagree with (that being a lesbian is bad) doesn't mean that everything we used to think is bad is not bad. Paedophilia is less tolerated now than in the past. Incest is still not tolerated. Those are behaviours though. Biological sex is a material reality. Therefore there is no inconsistency in saying lesbian relationships are positive life experiences but women and men are different sex categories.

I like the quote that if the shoe doesn't fit, one should change the shoe not the foot. If society forces people to conform to constructed norms of behaviour, change society. Don't change your body to fit the norms.

Sakura - that's an interesting point. And one I've raised quite a few times on the baby names board. People say how cool it is to have a unisex name 'like Elliot' on a girl. Or ask what people feel about X boys name being used for a girl. No one ever, ever, ever thinks a boy could be called Alice or Clare and have that be a unisex name. I do think that there is a point around this topic about female (and feminine) being an insult. Jack has chosen a 'unisex' name in a similar way.

Like a pp, I also think the terminology of 'deadnaming' is fairly horrid. The person you were has not died. The person you were existed, and that may not have accurately represented you, and of course it would be wrong to refer to Caitlyn Jenner as Bruce. But, if you are talking about, for example, sporting achievements, then she competed as a male and (unless you assume massive background knowledge of the person being discussed, which I guess you could for her), you're going to need to reference the past.

Can someone explain what it means to be non-binary transgender?

If one doesn't feel like one gender or the other, what does it mean to say "I am transgender"? From what to what are they trans, then?

Cote - in plain English, 'non-binary transgender' translates as 'special snowflake'.

Very helpful, thank you

As an aside, if anyone is interested in the whole gamut of genderqueer stuff rather than the more rigid 'trans' politics that have been rather done to death on MN before, check out The Lovers & Fighters Convention. It's put together from a set of performances at the Transfabulous festival in 2008, (disclosure - it's directed by a friend of mine) and is very watchable and very eye-opening, whether you are 'pro' or 'anti'.

And what Buffy said!

how patronising :|

This is a really interesting discussion, I'm glad it came up.

I don't really believe in gender. I wish society in general was entirely gender neutral, as far as possible.
I have a female body, but I dress in "mens" clothes, have a "mens" haircut and have mostly "mens" interests- although I do like baking and I am bored by watching football.

Sometimes I wonder if I am transgender. When I was a child, every night before going to sleep I would pray to wake up a boy. If I could have a magic wand that would turn me into a boy/man, I would probably do it. I'm not sure.

I don't want a penis though. Not especially (although it would be practical ) I used to hate my body, really hate it. Puberty was mildly traumatic and made me have depression. but now I have come to terms with it. I consider myself "lucky" though, that I have a naturally boyish body shape, and I am trying to get more muscular. I would hate to be more curvy, but I am comfortable with having a vagina and womb (Periods suck, but come on you can grow a BABY in there if you wanted! That's fucking AWESOME!)

I think I can pinpoint 2 main things that made me happier in myself

1. I went to an all girls school from 11-16. While it might seem counter intuitive (and I was annoyed that there were fewer people to play rugby with), with hindsight it meant that I didn't have to struggle to fit into the box of "boy" or "girl". Everyone was female but there was a huge spectrum of "femininity".

2. I was an army cadet, and the word "female" was generally used instead of "girl". I know it's very old school, and some people may even find it offensive, but it was in the context of when it was biologically relevant ie "we're going to need a separate tent for the female cadets" (instead of "for the girls") and otherwise we were treated exactly the same as the boys, we were all just cadets, or kids. It helped separate in my mind being a "girl" (which I didn't identify with) to being "female", which was a fact, and had no gender expectation connotations.

I do sometimes worry about transgender kids. I'm not saying it's not real, but it's no wonder that in society at the moment we have an increase in trans young people, when everything seems to say "girls do/like/wear/play with this, and boys with this, but don't worry if you're a boy who likes pink, because you can become a girl"

I wish we could just let kids be kids, without imposing gender, and let them do whatever they want. Ideally surgery and hormones should be only to ease your own personal suffering at being in the wrong body, not to make you into a "man or woman" in the eyes of society, because there should be no difference in the way that male and female people are treated. I mean that Jack Monroe should be able to be called by whatever name and pronouns they want, and bind their chest, without having to "come out" as anything.

Well, that was much longer than I anticipated, and I'm not sure if it makes sense. Oh well

Manatee I agree 100% with your post at 14.26