Jack Monroe on being non-gender binary

[IShouldBeSoLurky]

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2015/10/being-non-binary-i-m-not-girl-called-jack-any-more-i-m-not-boy-either

I've got a lot of time for Jack and Jack's brave stance on poverty and honest approach to discussing it. I also think the the taunting Jack came in for when the Daily Mail took agin Jack was appalling (but then the DM treats everyone appallingly if they thing it's going to get them clicks).

But this article... I don't know. It seems to me it would all be SO much simpler if one were able to say, "I was born a girl and given a girl's name which I later changed. I'm a lesbian and a mother and proud of both those things. And I don't feel it's necessary for me to perform gender, because I think the things I enjoy like pushing weights and wearing high heeled shoes sometimes shouldn't be gendered things."

Instead we have this tortuous charade of writing copy that's confusing because individuals want to be referred to by a plural pronoun, and the massive shenanigans about deadnaming (of course it's offensive, but no more so than calling a woman by her husband's surname when she hasn't actually changed her name) - some of it might be bigotry but some might just be confusion. And some of it, like referring to the Olympic medalist as Bruce, not Caitlyn, Jenner, is just factually accurate.

I was talking to DP about it earlier and saying that almost all languages (all, maybe? I don't know) have been structured with gender as pretty fundamental, because when language was developing, a person's biological sex WAS significant in a way it perhaps isn't, or shouldn't be, now. What if language just wasn't gendered at all (eg if the phrase "Ladies and gentlemen..." were never used), and it was only necessary to refer to a person's biological sex when it was fundamental to the subject (eg pregnancy and childbirth)? What if we were all they/zhe/something else?

I'm sure this has all been gone over multiple times on here, but I find it so difficult. Part of me wants to give Jack the respect Jack deserves, and part of me is like, "Look, lots of us aren't comfortable with gender roles. Stop making out that you're some special snowflake who gets misgendered at every turn." And then I think maybe I'm just as out of touch and carmudgeonly as people who insist it's fine to call gay people "queers".

What do others think about all this?

[almondpudding]

Overthemill, I do think it is damaging to young women. It teaches them to put people into categories based on sexist stereotypes and to associate them with their developing bodies.

So breasts become emblematic of various personality traits and so on.

I think young women from families that didn't raise them in gender stereotyped ways are particularly vulnerable to it.

I think it is similar to children from agnostic families being vulnerable to religious cults.

[overthemill]

Thank you everybody. I feel that we didn't raise our 3 stereotypically (2 dd, 1 DS) although I would also say they are fairly typical of their gender ( am I allowed to say that? Dd tells me off as I think gender and sex is the same and I have no idea how it could be any different (eg I am female so my gender is female and I have female sex organs?) )

I do not want to knock anyone or deride their views just so trying to understand but fear my vulnerable dd may get drawn into something that will be damaging to her. I do not fear her becoming bisexual or lesbian or heterosexual or anything - whatever will ensure her happiness is all I want - but fear her just to get drawn into a world because it reflects her own confusion around many many things not just gender / sexual identity.

Do you think relationships is best place?

[TooExtraImmatureCheddar]

I think the concept of "non-binary" has more to do with the body than the mind, quite frankly. I have a friend who identifies as non-binary, and who is currently taking testosterone and wants top surgery as soon as the NHS will agree to it. However he (he's asked to be called he) doesn't want to go on to have full gender reassignment surgery partly because it is very risky and partly because he doesn't feel the need. He will be happy to have reached a point on the spectrum where he has no breasts, short hair, facial hair, no periods but still retains female genitalia. He suffers from acute dysphoria and hated dealing with periods/constantly stooped to disguise large breasts etc. I don't know if it's significant that both Jack and my friend have large breasts that make it obvious which sex they are - perhaps had they had very flat chests naturally they wouldn't want top surgery.

I therefore think it's not about "feeling like a man", and more about feeling very strongly that their body is not right. The point at which an individual will feel right will vary. That's where the spectrum comes in.

[TooExtraImmatureCheddar]

There is binary of the sexes (apart from hermaphrodites/intersex people). I think that is what Jack means by non-binary. They don't feel like a feminine man or a butch woman, they just feel like themselves. Jack is Jack. But they feel that their body isn't right as it stands.

I am interested in how it affects someone who has had non-binary feelings for a long time to go through the very feminine process of pregnancy and birth, though. Does anyone know if Jack has elaborated on that anywhere?

[ArcheryAnnie]

I don't think Jack should be used as some kind of totem to pin every transgender ideology on to. They can't be held responsible for every trans theory just because they say they are non binary.

No, but I don't think anyone here has done that - if they have, I've missed it. It is perfectly fair to comment on what Jack has said, and what kind of ideology they are upholding.

I was also pretty depressed at the list of "pioneers" and "giants" Jack cites at the end, which includes Paris Lees, who thinks men catcalling women in the street is just awesome and sexy, and encourages men to do it, and Bethany Black, whose "comedy" routine is based on having a hot Swedish girlfriend, and who sneers at women for being so stupid as to try and live up to what they are told to do in women's magazines. Because it's totes revolutionary to punish women for trying to survive under patriarchy, when you haven't grown up under the same pressures yourself.

[overthemill]

buffy yes I think it would help to understand the theory ( and I come from a background of active feminism in 70s and 80s dropping out when I couldn't cope with political lesbianism/ antizionism arguments and many years as a women's rights worker) as this all feels so new and strange to me. And absolutely support for her - she has to navigate this but I'm worried for her

So 2 threads then! Thank you very much for your kind replies

[almondpudding]

Annie, I was more saying it as a reminder rather than a criticism of what anyone said. Because this thread seemed to be getting pretty theory heavy (which these threads often do), and as it started out as being a thread about Jack, I think it would be a shame to now start applying all the theories to Jack, using Jack as the example of them.

Because they are a person who reads what is written about them.

A bit like if said I was going on holiday to Italy and everyone piled on with their theory of travel, tourism and national identity and applied them to Almondpudding's holiday plans.

[ArcheryAnnie]

overthemill I hope that everyone, whatever their position on trans issues, would hope for the best outcome for your DD, whatever that outcome is that enables her to be what she needs to be.

I think the only thing that I'd add to the general warnings about tumblr, which do encourage young people to fixate on their identities (when in most cases they are just coming up with more arcane names for perfectly ordinary feelings shared by millions - see "boi", "demisexual" and "grey-ace"), is that I do worry that some young teens who now ID as trans are getting stuck in it due to outside pressure, even when they might naturally have changed their minds. I think current stats is that most gender-questioning teens don't eventually turn out to be trans (though many do turn out to be gay). I worry especially with some of the very high-profile trans teens, the ones where the parents have made it into a really big thing, got the schools on board, really propped up the whole trans identification, then if that teen then decides that really isn't them, this whole edifice has been built around them and they have no point of return - they are put into a position of not being able to say uh, that's not me, I've changed my mind.

But yes, please do come and chat. There is a really wide range of opinion here, and a lot of disagreement, but I can't see how anyone would want anything but to support you and your DD as you work through this.

[ArcheryAnnie]

Eh, Almondpudding if you used your mention of holiday plans for Italy to make it clear how much you didn't like Spain, a discussion might happen anyway!

[Devora]

It's not just that lesbians have the right to only go out with women; they also have the right to only choose lesbian relationships. It's really not about breasts; it's about being in a mutually affirmative lesbian relationship.

[VashtaNerada]

If you're really worried overthemill it might be worth looking up Gendered Intelligence or Mermaids. Personally, I don't think definitions matter that much. If someone defines as a girl, a tomboy, a transboy, gender queer, gender fluid, non-binary - it doesn't actually matter! What matters is that they're safe and happy.
There's some confusion on this thread in relation to definitions. Sorry for patronising but for the uninitiated sexual orientation is who you fancy (straight / gay / bi etc) and gender identity is who you think you are (male/female/neither etc). Trans is an umbrella term for anyone who doesn't fully identify with the sex they were assigned at birth. Massive range of people under that - cross-dressers, trans people who've had surgical changes, people who don't really feel male or female etc

[overthemill]

Thanks for this. So I am straight female ? That makes sense about sexuality and gender to me. But how is my 'sex' not my 'gender'?

[almondpudding]

I wouldn't go to either of those sites. They are incredibly sexist.

It matters a lot what someone defines as if some of those definitions involve being positive about extreme body modifications and damaging clothing like binders.

None of those apply to defining as a lesbian, but they do apply to many trans identities.

[ArcheryAnnie]

I'd agree with Almond about Mermaids not being helpful, though I don't know about the other one. Mermaids, I assume with the best of intentions, pushes that you are even more special and your parents will love you even more if you are trans - they even sell Mothers' Day cards which say this. I don't think this is a particularly supportive or helpful thing to push, and even more so for those gender-questioning teens (ie, most of them) who don't turn out to be trans, once they've worked it through.

[VashtaNerada]

I don't know Mermaids very well but I'm not happy at Gendered Intelligence being called sexist. Their comments on the damage of patriarchy and gender as a social construct is bloody good feminism if you ask me!!

Re. sex and gender - sex is the biological difference you're born with (but even this isn't strictly binary due to intersex people) and gender is whether you define as male or female and is influenced by society's ideas of what it means to be male or female. Some people believe the two are completely different (ie "I was born with male genitalia but I am a woman") and others say it's the same thing ("I'm a woman because of my biological sex and nothing can change that"). This difference of opinion is one of the things that gets debated a lot here.

[overthemill]

Thanks vashta. I did ask dd and she was cutting in having to explain it. God I feel old. I know and understand about transgender and about 'intersex' it's the other new ( to me) terms that are confusing. And of course even my really sick dd can roll her eyes at mums ignorance. She can barely speak so it's hard to talk but we do try all the time.

[Gunpowderplot]

I gather that there are countless types of non standard identities (that is no doubt the wrong word) out there. Including one for humans who identify with some kind of animal, eg a deer.
I wish that humans could manage, without undue suffering, to just get on with things while being called he or she. As they presumably always have done in the past.
Interestingly, in Chinese the equivalent pronoun for "he" and "she" was just the one pronoun, written and pronounced the same - ta. In the 1920s it was decided by intellectuals that Chinese should have a he and she pronoun, as in Western languages, and a new pronoun - she (though still pronounced ta) was created.

[FreshwaterSelkie]

Shovetheholly Thu 22-Oct-15 13:49:29

(Equally Freshwater - as I said earlier, Jack makes it clear that they don't think 'ballet is for girls and martial arts are for boys' but that SOCIETY creates these pressures that need to be resisted)

No, I think Jack also thinks this, from what's said in the article. They say in the article "I revelled in my hard, masculine body" - well, I also revel in my muscular body, because I love to lift weights, but it's just a hard, muscular (female) body, why append masculine unless you yourself firmly associate muscle with masculinity? They then elaborate on a physical training regime, and talk about "foods with high testosterone levels, or bodyweight exercises for building shoulders and arms", but why would they have chosen to talk about this in this context unless they think that this is a marker of gender non-conformity? It's not! And nor should it be. I've got massive shoulders - but I'm still a woman, still female. I'm not 100% sure where I'm going with this, they can do whatever they want, but I'm just not sure that what they're describing means rejectimg male or female to quite the extent they feel it does, because they certainly seem to be much more positive about stereotypically male attributes than stereotypically female ones.

I do take the point above about not holding one person up as having to be representative of All Things Trans, totally on board that people should be above all themselves.

[ArcheryAnnie]

That's exactly it, Freshwater. Jack isn't resisting it so much as, er, promoting it and propping it up.

They can do what they like, and live their life however best makes them happy, but when they use their public position to actively promote attitudes that damage women and girls, then it's fair to comment.

[EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs]

Tbf there might have been more to the conversation with Jack's ex but I felt sorry for her too. There's a huge difference in implication between someone having a mastectomy for health reasons and having one because breasts are feminine.

[alexpolistigrakia]

I am an adult human female, and as humans are dimorphic, I cannot be both a male and a female. I am a woman. This is the term for adult human females. This is a simple matter of biology. The clothes I choose to wear and the way I feel inside will not change these basic facts.

This is what I believe. There is no spectrum and there is not an infinite number of genders. There is biological sex, which as I have stated, is dimorphic, and there are behavioural codes, which are another matter. Behaviour does not have to be dependent on sex, preferences are just a matter of personality.

Jack Monroe sounds to me like a very confused individual, who may be suffering from a mental illness if she wishes to amputate a part of her body for non-medical reasons.

This is my stance on gender identity. I have as much right as Jack Monroe for my stance to be seen as valid. For her to demand that I refer to her using the pronoun 'they' is to demand that I reject this, it is to demand that I accept gender and that I accept that one can change from male to female and vice versa, or simply by choice become neither.

You may call this disrespectful. But in doing so, you prioritise her feelings over mine, for it is a disrespect towards me and my identity to demand it.

[nooka]

almondpudding linked to this lecture on another thread. I think for those trying to differentiate between sex and gender (and male and female brains as that's the topic of the lecture) it's a really excellent discussion backed up by lots of examples and references

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKeKCxPApKQ

Quite long but really helpful on the conceptual side. In particular discussing what binary/dimorphism really means and how gender really is not dimorphic at all. Thus gender - or masculinity/femininity cannot be either split into opposite poles or be described as a spectrum (with a sliding scale from manly to effeminate). Whereas primary sex characteristics are very dimorphic.

TED talk is much shorter but covers similar ground.

[Ememem84]

Firstly I'll admit I've only skim read the thread. But will come back and read it properly.

I usually avoid the threads in feminism section because I personally find them too "heavy" for want of a better word.

But. This has caught my attention.

[Ememem84]

I've now read the whole thread. and very interesting views here.

i am an adult female. I also identify as female. I dress a certain way, I choose to wear skirts/dresses, high heels and do hair and make up.

the presumption that because I do this I must be a fragile princess (this has happened) really annoys me.

I get laughed at if I choose to do typical "bloke" things mostly by my dads brother for example - I decorated our house, I knocked a wall down, I tiled. I would have probably preferred someone/anyone to do it for me, but not because I'm a weak fragile woman, more because I'm lazy. DH would have done it or helped out but he was away. and we had a deadline.

If I'm being honest, I think if DH woke up one day and told me he wanted to transition, I would be shocked (as I expect Jacks partner was) and I would struggle to deal with it. i like men. so if my husband decided he wanted to become female, I would wonder what that would make me.