Single mothers using sperm banks

[idealiseme]

You may have read about how in Scandinavia especially it has become very common for women to use sperm banks and ever larger numbers of women are using them and becoming single mothers. I see this as entirely positive. Vox pop of women at work 75/25 in favour yet of 20 men asked, only 1 said he thought it was a good thing. I know they probably feel threatened, redundant etc but I would have thought some of them would be able to see the good points.

doh - right, sorry - you said sperm banks not donor eggs.

doh!

Still hope it would be regulated and not dictated y money.

Sperm donors presumably are happy to donate and for children to be produced.

All 9 of them in the UK National Sperm Bank......

Fear of unwanted children making claims upon them seems to have put most British men off....

than not be born at all.

There are many children that "are not born at all" - I've "not had" 3 whilst typing this...

It's a bit of a weird statement if you don't mind me saying as it doesn't seem to make sense.....

"Would you rather not have been born at all?" is a very low bar when it comes to parenthood. "Sure I'm an alcoholic with mental health issue and no money and married to a man who beats me up, but I'm coming off the pill, because my mate comes from a similarly fucked family and she says she wouldn't rather have been aborted."

Not saying that being the child of anonymous sperm donation is on the same league, just that "rather not have been born" is a test so low as to be meaningless.

The HFEA did a lot of research and talked to a lot of children of sperm donation before they decided on barring anonymity, so I'm inclined to think they knew what they were doing. (I know the question wasn't specifically about anonymity).

One other thing - Scandinavia is famously supportive of childcare and work-life balance. I bet single parenthood is an easier choice there than here.

Is there a link to the research Andre?

I'm surprised there are a lot of children of sperm donors in the UK.

This is an excellent (imo) article on the complexities of being a child of a sperm donor. www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/wellbeing/11607985/Is-it-time-to-question-the-ethics-of-donor-conception.html
I accept that some people are fine with not knowing, but soem aren't.

Thanks TJ.

I think if the woman is financially OK and has given it lots of proper thought, then why not really.

It's not "brilliant" and it's not "awful", it's just some women having babies. Which isn't anything new really.

"Not saying that being the child of anonymous sperm donation is on the same league"

Good. Then don't compare them.

Agreed Disco I do think anyone deciding to go it alone needs to aware it's going to be more difficult on your own unless you have sufficient financial resources and/or a support network of friends and family.

I'm not sure that the woman central to that Telegraph article is the type of child of sperm donation that most single women will be producing. Her mother chose to have a child, from a sperm donation from a friend, there has been a bit of a conspiracy to keep salient facts from her. It's not really comparable to getting a sperm sample from a sperm bank.

Apples and oranges, imo.

My dds father might as well have been a sperm donor for all his involvement in her life. Except his involvement with me prior to that was far longer lived. As a father he's a waste of oxygen. As a genetic sperm donor pretty much perfect.

My dd is 11, and perfectly happy and well adjusted, with a pleasant life and as yet no worries. Her father is a topic she knows is open to discussion, but as yet her interest has been little. She appears to view his role as similar to some mammal fathers, they aren't involved. Meanwhile I had 2 married till death parents and I would have given dd up for adoption if I thought I'd offer her a childhood like mine.

If I had the finances to have more a sperm donor is definitely a route I'd be open to.

I'm criticising the quality of the argument with a reductio ad absurdam Cote. If your test doesn't say that you shouldn't have a child when absolutely anyone except the Pope would say "no, don't have a child (for the sake of the child)" then it's not a reasonable test.

There is no reduction to absurdity here. You are not only completely missing the point but also making a pointless reference.

It is not my 'test'. I have only reply TJE's post where she said she wouldn't wish it on any child to be ignorant of his father's identity, saying such babies with anonymous donors for fathers should not be conceived.

In reply, I pointed out that these children would presumably be glad that they exist, even if they don't know their fathers. TJE agreed.

Therefore, TJE is wrong to say that children who won't know their fathers should not be conceived at all. Sure, it would be better for them to know their fathers, but it is not so terrible a fate that they would rather not be born at all.

It helps to read the thread before you post.

But you could say that of many genuinely terrible fates as well, cases where everybody would say it's not right to have a child. Retrospectively saying "I wish I'd never been born" is fortunately so rare (except fleetingly) that it doesn't work as an argument to say "it's fine to have a child then".

There was an interesting discussion here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2460267-Guest-post-We-chose-a-donor-online-and-ordered-sperm-in-my-lunch-break

It is not my 'test'. I have only reply TJE's post where she said she wouldn't wish it on any child to be ignorant of his father's identity, saying such babies with anonymous donors for fathers should not be conceived

I do wonder how many people in this situation genuinely are concerned. I'm not, but my goodness plenty of people seem to know better than me that I should be.

I'm struggling to see why it would be seen as positive that more children are being brought into the world without fathers, or that more women are giving up on finding good co-parents. Both seem like negative things to me.

In general having two parents is better than just one (usual caveats about the parents being good enough) and knowing both your parents and their families (again taking the assumption that those families are generally OK).

Even just thinking about simple redundancy, having only one parent has significant downsides, one carer, one income, one person to get along with, share interests with, be healthy, survive until your adulthood and beyond etc etc.

I posted on the thread linked to above.

Nooka, when phrased in the language you have chosen it is easy to see why it can be viewed as negative.

Typically, single mothers using sperm banks will be in their late 30s/early 40s, financially secure and, as is often the case, intelligent to boot.

Most don't see it as 'giving up on finding a man' but rather, refusing to tolerate behaviour from a man that would ultimately lead to unhappiness and stress further down the line. Many get to a point where we realise we either need to find a man in the next six to twelve months or make a positive decision to have a child alone.

Having two parents is better than one if both parents are loving, involved, dedicated, positive role models and care and provide equally. That's the environment I grew up in (for the most part, at any rate!)

Two parents is not better than one if one parent is verbally, physically, sexually or financially abusing the other.

Two parents is not better than one is one parent is disinterested and uncaring.

Two parents is not better than one if both parents are more interested in their relationship with one another than their children.

Two parents is not better than one if they allow the child to grow up in filth and squalor, if they do not attempt to take the children to the park, the zoo, the beach.

The unfortunate fact (for a country with such a high divorce rate) is that being in a bad relationship is distressing for the children while it's happening and upsetting if it breaks down altogether.

By contrast, one parent might be one parent, but she can provide the all important stability, love and support a child needs during their formative years. As I said on the other thread, I don't doubt some children will feel a strange sense of identify as they grow but it does not follow that all will and in any case, many of the 'issues' people mention are a concern about the choice - Sarah aged 19 who has a one night stand which results in pregnancy is told in comforting tones not to worry, you'll be a great mum and have you looked on entitled.to? Mary aged 37who plans to visit a sperm bank, is told she is depriving her child of his genetic heritage.

Really, a lot of this is the simple twenty first century fact that families don't all look the same and all that truly matters is that children are loved and well cared for regardless of the number of people doing the caring or the sex of the people providing it!

I did add caveats about the quality of the parents and their families, of course that has to be factored in, but I think it's better to consider this argument on an 'all other things being equal basis'.

The thing is I can easily compare that list to many two parent families:

Financially secure and intelligent. Tick
Loving and caring. Tick
Not abusive. Tick
Interested and caring. Tick
Involved and nurturing. Tick

The only thing that looks like a potential two parent issue is being two involved with each other. However a single parent might well look for relationships or romance (and why not) so there is also a chance of distraction there too.

My point is simply that when you have two parents you double the chances that at any time one of them will be a good parent. I guess you could also say that it doubles the chance that at least one of them will be a bad parent.

I am not in any way saying that non standard families are worse than standard two parent families, or that people should stick with bad relationships in order to have children/for the sake of children just that growing numbers of women choosing to go ti alone isn't particularly positive.

If I thought it was then logically I think I'd also be saying that the fact that many women get to their late 30s/40s without having found a relationship not characterised by unhappiness and stress is somehow a good thing.

I also of course bring my personal experiences to this (don't we all), and my father was hugely important to me, while my relationship with my mother was/is stressful at times. Likewise at times my dh is a better parent than me, he brings different things to the table that are equally important to my children than the qualities I bring. I woudl consider it a huge loss to my children not to have him, and certainly consider it a huge personal loss to me that my own father has died.

From observation of others, I'd say those who struggle with an absent parent are the ones with a parent, usually a father, who pops in and out of their life when they feel like it. Rather than those who have no memory of their fathers involvement.

I understand what you mean nooka but for many of us (and by now, I know a few!) it isn't that we've had relationships characterised by stress and unhappiness but that we haven't been in the right place at the right time.

However else it is put, all things will never be equal because families vary so greatly. Grandparents can hugely add to and enhance a child's life but if they have passed away before the child is born, it is sad but doesn't make their childhood any less happy than a child who grows up with four sets of wonderful grandparents.

My own father was wonderful and I adored him, but he set the bar very high and as a result I was not prepared to tolerate selfishness or rudeness or arrogance. It is a huge personal loss to me that he died but then that is because he was a fabulous man.

I do think i have a great deal to offer a child and that a child's experience growing up with me will be a happy, stable and overall positive one. Statistics indicate this to be the case overwhelmingly for 'single mothers by choice.'

The truth is, people feel odd and peculiar about creating a child without a man - it is muttered to be 'unnatural' (but fine if your male partner has a genetic disorder or zero sperm count) and that 'children need a father' (ignoring the domestic abuse cases, the thousands of tumultuous and miserable divorces that result from this view) and that really, 'these' women have ideas above their station; working successfully AND having a child? Becki with three children by age 22 in a council flat on benefits is alternately an innocent victim to be patronised or a sign of broken Britain depending on your political view - but no one - or very rarely - will tell Becki her children should not have been born.

Use of sperm banks isn't in itself positive. The message - that women are making decisions about their families independently of men - is. The more men who realise that there aren't thousands of thirtysomethings desperate for them to marry and set up home with them, the better. What we want is a society where people make choices that suit them, not where people make choices because they feel they have to.

It's not single parents I have a problem with Beatrice. It's a biological fact that a man's input is needed when deciding to have a child, and I do believe that the child has a right to know who that man is. I would say the same to a couple in a traditional relationship who decide to use donor sperm because of medical issues. Of course the most important bit of parenting is actually bringing up a child, but the child needs to be able to know who supplied the genes as well as the love. Obv nowadays anonymous sperm or egg donation isn't allowed,and so children do get the ability to know their genetic parent at 18, but I would argue that it's a much easier relationship to build if it's built up gradually rather than being something huge for the child to discover upon reaching adulthood.

Believe me, no one who conceived a child via a sperm bank would suddenly tell the child at adulthood. It is part of their life from the moment they are old enough to process information.

No one has a problem with single parents, but a number of people have a problem with women people choosing to be single parents.

So people don't have an issue with donor sperm then, just the anonymity?