Article in Huffpost about transphobia in midwifery

[TribbleNamedDave]

I've read this several times now, and I honestly don't know what I think about it all.

That's an interesting point Cad. Does anyone know whether language about men is being challenged in the same way.

Is there a concept of a Cis Man?

Is the literature on men's health issues being gender neutralised? I'm thinking prostate or testicular cancer documentation perhaps?

Not being goady, I'd genuinely like to know.

I think that there must be a concept of 'cisman' - of course that doesn't mean that you need to pay any heed to it.

That's an interesting question re the health literature for men, I would also like to know.

Have any FTT tried to join any of the remaining men only golf clubs? (I think there still are some) Or the Freemasons? Or if any of those Iron John howling-in-the-forest type clubs still exist, any FTT demanding to occupy those? And how has that worked out? Genuine question from me too. I know what answer I suspect, but I would rather have something factual.

I've tried googling, but googling "men only spaces and transgender" only brings back results on MTT accessing women only spaces. Which probably tells us something.

Just had a horrible thought that I might have inadvertently "what about teh menz"d. Forgive me if I have, I am still working this all out in my head and the above was a bit of a word vomit as I thought through it.

Omni I think it's fair in this context. If we are suggesting that this kind of gender neutralising of documentation negatively erases women from female only issues then it is reasonable to check what happens on the other side.

If there is no movement to have the word 'men, man or male' removed from male specific Heath documentation I'd question why there is an unbalance.

Haha, I typed "transmen in male spaces" and Google said:
Showing results for trans women in male spaces
Search instead for transmen in male spaces

So all the early results were about access to female spaces. Then this, from a transman who was scared to go on a men-only naked yoga retreat (he has to be Californian, surely?!)

The emphasis on bio males entering female spaces continues, then another strong slant emerges - transmen feeling sad because they are not fully accepted in gay male spaces.

I'm out of my empathy zone. If you want to be a trouser-wearing bio female and have sex with men, why not simply be a trouser-wearing hetero woman?

Reading the blog about breastfeeding with barely any breast tissue left due to gender reassignment made me feel very uncomfortable.

FFS keep your breasts if you want breasts. It isn't rocket science. And I have doubts that needing to change your own and everyone else's language/leaflet copy/rules because of 'feeling like a man' actually has ANY real validity whatsoever.

You can't 'feel' like a man. You either are a man or you aren't, because all it means is you have a penis.

Cocks play their part of course, but its the testosterone that's the main player.

I'm another one delighted that someone is standing up against the erasure of women. Women and transmen if you must, but "pregnant individuals" is ridiculous.

And I cannot get your head around feeling you're in the wrong body and then doing the most ultimately womanly thing there is to do (pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding). Why would a TM want to use their woman's body in that way?

Hermione, if the perception of one's womb is that it's a male womb, why not?

cadnowyllt, what do you mean? I have much higher T than the average woman, due to PCOS. It makes fertility a little tricky, causes a few side effects I don't especially like, but it doesn't make me an iota less female. points to 18 week pregnant belly

Yy Womb. And congrats!

I still don't get how anyone can 'identify as a man' or 'identify as a woman'.

How is that even defined? because every blog or article about someone who is 'transgender' appears to want to challenge what 'women' or 'men' are supposed to do, and not to do, completely.

So what's the point? It's like if I said 'Hey I identify as a [garden gnome] (whatever) so please recognise that I have a right to be a garden gnome as much as the next, genuine, born-that-way garden gnome. Oh and by the way, I think garden gnomes ought to be able to be alive, and they shouldn't be made of concrete, and they should physically be able to act just like, uh, women, too.'

So you're basically saying you identify as what you already are but you want to be called a garden gnome.

Great.

yonic and that's where my head explodes and I think these people are delusional and mentally ill rather than trans anything

Don't you know that the ability to become pregnant doesn't define you as a woman? Men can have babies too, now!

if the perception of one's womb is that it's a male womb, why not?

Because male specifically means that you don't have a womb. It's the definition of male.

All the cultural shit is ephemeral. Trousers, skirts, long hair, short hair, manual work, pink and blue - it's all male or female, depending on your century, your associations, your environment.

NOTHING cultural is actually, definably male. Therefore the only valid, scientific definition of male is a biological one.

Culturally, anything goes.

I know, Gudrun ... It's all so much meh, let people do what they like, until you realise the depth & completeness with which the trans narrative eradicates sex differences, and elevates gender.

Arab men wear dresses, kiss each other and hold hands in public. I don't think many would be too thrilled to be told they are women.

like one of the btl posters said, midwife means 'with woman'
AFAIAC if the woman who is pregnant/birthing chooses to call herself a man, it's only polite to go along with it
but really, they are a woman! because they are HAVING A BABY

I agree, Gudrun; just addressing the likely stated response to the cognitive dissonance Hermione identified.

What a load of cobblers. pregnant man is as ridiculous as female penis IMHO. this sort of thing gets my back up and makes me less likely to be accepting of transpeople, don't they realise the damage they are doing?

Often on these threads there are people with trans friends who also challenge some aspects of trans activism. I don't always agree with them but I do respect that they've at least tried to understand.
There are posters on here who clearly don't know many trans people because some of these questions could easily be answered by chatting to people.
I'm not sure what point I'm making here really... maybe just that these threads escalate so quickly and I know trans friends (male and female) who would answer your questions politely and respectfully if you ever met. I know plenty of trans feminists who agree the patriarchy is damaging and that gender is a social construct, it's not as simple as fem vs trans which is the way these threads tend to head.

I've asked for my last post to go as I think I crossed a line. I'd like to apologise. I am probably also wrong. You are right, I don't know, as far as I know, any transgender people. I have encountered some who have been perfectly pleasant. I still don't understand a heck of a lot of the issues. But no one should be as rude as I was last night.

vashta I know plenty of trans people, thanks. It's just that the ones I know aren't barking mad or misogynists. Expressing deep hurt that midwives are objecting to the removal of the word "woman" from literature about pregnancy and birth makes you one or the other in my eyes.

Succinct and to the point.

I only know one transwoman well. I'm sure she'd agree that the removal of the word women from midwifery literature is crazy.
I don't know any transmen. I guess you could argue that a transwoman has as little in common with a transman as i do.