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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Labour Party leadership election

257 replies

Amethyst24 · 12/09/2015 12:09

Make leader, male deputy, male candidate for London Mayor. I fucking despair, I really do. I've been going on about this on social media and I can't seem to make myself shut up about it, it makes me so incredibly angry.

OP posts:
YonicScrewdriver · 14/09/2015 18:33

"Yonic I am interested in dismantling systems of oppression, not improving my position within it"

It is oppressive if mediocre men are getting positions that women have to be good to get, don't you think?

Again, a general point, not specifically about Cooper vs Burnham or whatever.

AskBasil · 14/09/2015 18:43

"To hear those who have been responsible for cuts that represent a sustained onslaught against women suddenly becoming determined feminists today makes me sick."

Yes. Me too.

QueenStarlight · 14/09/2015 19:05

"To hear those who have been responsible for cuts that represent a sustained onslaught against women suddenly becoming determined feminists today makes me sick."

It doesn't make me sick. It makes me hopeful. These people might not believe what they say now, but hopefully in trying to convince the electorate of it, they get behind their words and start to.

There will not just be a change in the Labour party, but the Conservative party too. Whether it is actually meant or not doesn't matter, it shows an acknowledgement of what people want and that is a bloody good start.

TheXxed · 14/09/2015 19:24

Buffy and Yonic what's does representation even mean? I am not being obtuse.

If you are going to re-enact systems of oppression then does matter if you are a woman or a man or a martian.

Theresa May is a woman and allowed for women to be brutalised in Yarls wood. I feel that representation works on the assumption that we will do what's best for ourselves and vote in our own best interest this is not the case.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 14/09/2015 20:01

Yet, curiously, it's not Andy Burnham who's Shadow Minister for Mental Health.

Actually couldn't give a shit about that bit. The very fact that there is a shadow Minister for MH is huge. Enormous. Someone actually taking MH seriously enough to create a role for it where it's been missing before.

Personally, I'm hanging out bunting.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 14/09/2015 20:14

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YellowJerseyPan · 14/09/2015 20:35

Following on from there, anyone with a promotion of women in positions of authority and power know that there is a crucial aspect in 'role modeling' for other women. That you see 'your sex' being able to have access and aspiration is v important - and that transmission mechanism goes well beyond the immediate issue re position in society AND inter-personally in daily lives. imo.

I've missed all of today's developments but see that the 50/50 split is observed though not in the hoped way.

I'm still having a sense of 'In JC we trust' but I want a bit more evidence please.

YellowJerseyPan · 14/09/2015 21:03

"Exceptional men" Buffy? I'm still with JC on a national scale. He is about a movement, not an ego, as far as I see him.

Hovis2001 · 14/09/2015 21:10

Totally agree with everything Buffy and Yellow have said whilst also tying myself in over-tired knots about this. I guess I half want to groan, half want to cheer, and half want to defend Corbyn without entirely knowing why.

The cheering. Role modelling - I scrolled down the 'Shadow Cabinet announced' articles today and saw a female face every other picture. Angela Eagle will be standing in the place of the party leader for PMQs. The shadow Minister for Defence is female! (By the way, afaik the first female minister for defence, shadow or actual). How many unreconstructed admirals or wing commanders are sucking their teeth in at that, I wonder?

The groaning. Jeremy Corbyn is not, as Buffy puts it, that exceptional man to truly understand the struggles of women and to take direct steps, to the detriment of himself, towards liberation. I genuinely believe that he is convinced that his choice of cabinet was right for what he wants to do. But I don't think he understands women's issues or feminism and I worry that he's not the type of person to try to claim expertise in an area he doesn't understand or have oddles of experience on. I think as far as women's issues in particular go he'll dance around them the way he did with the train carriages thing (what he actually said, not what the headlines said - i.e. I'll consult with women but not actually make a straight-up statement myself!)

The defending. I think PPs have been right to say that for Corbyn to bring through the economic change he wants - and that change is at the heart of everything else he argues for - then he needs a shadow chancellor who is 100% onside with that. And, as PPs have also said, the austerity that male chancellor-and-party leader pair want to tackle has caused disproportionate harm to women. But... if they somehow manage to bring about a new type of economic policy in this country, thereby disproportionately benefiting women - even if their intention was not to help women in particular - does that make Corbyn's choice of a male over a female chancellor ok? Confused

I don't know! It's very ends vs means and I'm still not sure what I really think. It raises a lot of interesting questions for me personally about the aims of (my?!) feminism. E.g. the question of do we want women to get the roles that men traditionally get -- or do we want to build the status of roles that women traditionally fill? (A wider q. for me than the shadow cabinet, obviously!)

Anyway, I'm going to shut up now because I'm meandering terribly after not enough sleep. Grin

AskBasil · 14/09/2015 21:14

See I quite liked the fact that he said he'd consult with women about the train carriages thing, rather than telling us what his manly opinion was.

I like a man who knows he doesn't know. Grin

TheXxed · 14/09/2015 21:21

Buffy I appreciate your response and I understand the point you make about unconscious bias. But I think you are working on the assumption that people who are negatively affect by unconscious bias don't have the same biases.

Misogyny, racism and homophobia are internalised by everyone not just those who benefit from it. I internalised alot of racism growing up, I assumed that black people were disadvantaged because we were lazy, criminal and lacked impulse control. I bought into the 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' narrative (I thought we lived in a meritocracy).

I am frustrated by the language used by politicians in regards to representation, its focused on whether or not you have enough women, BME men and women and disabled people rather than the structures which disadvantage them. It feels like we are moving deck chairs in a sinking ship.

Also there is a huge amount to pressure not talk about misogyny and racism. We have more BME mps than ever and no govt offices or appointments devoted to race equality.

www.voice-online.co.uk/article/how-find-race-equality-minister??the-voice-style

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 14/09/2015 21:24

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HoVis2001 · 14/09/2015 21:25

I like a man who knows he doesn't know.

Grin I know what you mean and that was part of my reaction at the time too! But, I could have told him that was him handing his own head on a platter to the media who enjoy being feminist when it suits them but not when you're name is Charlotte Proudman by phrasing it how he did. My worry is that he's out of his comfort zone on women's issues but is too proud / principled to let someone else phrase his words for him. I don't know!

YellowJerseyPan · 14/09/2015 21:25

Train-carriages thing - I thought he was spot on to not make a definitive statement of intent - to consult with those most immediately affected seemed a best way-to-go.

Chancellor? Really not sure. Divisive yes, but who else with the will, chutzpah, 'Balls' (and yes I am being multi-layered there!) authority and experience was on offer? I don't know, but perhaps McDonnell will damn himself sooner rather than later to give JC an opportunity to question his credibility. We do know that this isn't the Cabinet that will be in place come 2020.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 14/09/2015 21:32

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YellowJerseyPan · 14/09/2015 21:35

yes Buffy, I took your point re 'exceptional' I think?? No, I think your 'standard' may be similar to mine, poss. Of all the liberally blokes I know and have known, I can point to only one, a friend of decades standing. But with Jezza..two!

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 14/09/2015 21:40

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YellowJerseyPan · 14/09/2015 21:53

Nope, not him.Hmm

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 14/09/2015 21:54

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YonicScrewdriver · 14/09/2015 22:03

Pan was riffing on Peter Kay, I think, Buffy.

"Maybe, for me, it's the fact that having women as shadow ministers is still such a wacky idea that it's something that has to be pledged, fought for, picked over. Women should just be there doing jobs, treated as men are, as simply people not as 'women'. But we're not. I think that's what pisses me off the most, that we have to fight still for these basic, basic things. "

Yy to this.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 14/09/2015 22:04

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YellowJerseyPan · 14/09/2015 22:09

I don't know what riffing means Yonic ! And PK wasn;t part of it, whatever 'it' was.Smile

As we were...

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 14/09/2015 22:12

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YellowJerseyPan · 14/09/2015 22:24

Riff. Of course. But thanks for the link.

Riffing off Peter Kay? I've missed a note, obv.

So unless any other musical incidentals pop along, as we were? Smile

YonicScrewdriver · 14/09/2015 23:03

Ah, I thought when Buffy posted Kay, you were saying with "no, not him" that your friend of decades standing wasn't a Mr Kay.

I obviously guessed wrong as to what your post meant.

Meanwhile, back on topic...

I do wish journalists didn't see this as a one up man ship game. Whether or not Corbyn will be successful, time will tell, but I heard one berating him earlier because he wasn't planning on trying to change PMQ on day one!

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