Can we please talk about "Gender" - I seem to find myself in a muddle thinking about it

[LovelyFriend]

I'm still not perfectly clear on the differing feminist ideas/theories/positions on gender. I've read many threads on here about it and they are enlightening and I have learnt a lot but my mind but still struggles to understand some concepts.

My own feelings veer towards gender being a spectrum - society wants each sex to conform/identify in particular gendered ways. I see that being a woman/man as a very broad spectrum that includes all the ways a biological born woman or man may live and be. I guess by extension then I would view a Transwoman as a biological man and part of the spectrum of "maleness" and a Transman part of the spectrum of "femaleness". (I totally accept any trans persons right to be called by the name/pro noun of their choosing).

Perhaps it is biological physicality I view as a spectrum, rather than gender?

Apologies for my clumsy descriptions!

So I was looking at a RadFem website about an upcoming event that seemed quite interesting.

The event website states:
It is a central part of radical feminist analysis that gender is a tool of women's oppression, not women's liberation. None of the organisers consider ourselves to have an innate gender - neither masculine, feminine, trans, cis, gender queer, or any other gender. We are gender abolitionists who have been raised and socialized as girls and women because of our female bodies* in the context of patriarchy.
Women who view gender differently, as a benign spectrum of self expression rather than a human created power hierarchy, will find other events where they can organise with like minded people. RadFems Resist is designed by and for women interested in radical feminism and those who want to genuinely engage with second wave theory and women's liberationist ideas.

I'd like to understand this statement better - what are gender abolitionists? How does that manifest in daily life? What is "second wave theory"?

Am I one of the "Women who view gender differently, as a benign spectrum of self expression rather than a human created power hierarchy" who they don't want to attend the event? I can't figure it out.

Can anyone provide any insight or recommend any reading on this? It is something I'd really like to be confident discussing (outside of this forum).

I haven't had time to completely catch up on the thread yet but just wanted to send a hug to YeahWell - I'm very happy that this thread has been of some use to you. What you, your DD and your family are going through sounds extraordinarily difficult and impossible to navigate. If my DD was experiencing anything similar I think I too would be pushing strongly for more time too. for you.

It does seem extraordinary to me that gender is so binary in our society. I'd really like to think that in my lifetime, I will see this change and people are accepted for who they are and how they are and are given peace and space to live their lives as they choose. I like to think that in not too many years time we will look back on these strict gender lines as old fashioned, redundant and unnecessary.

I watched a programme on Transgender people last night on iPlayer.

One of the people also talked about being exposed to female hormones on the womb to at the stage before the embryo had taken on a sex. She talked about having a female brain in a male physical body. I wonder if there is evidence to support this effect of hormones on an embryo?

Also one of the people they followed was a 17yo who had started taken hormones. Most of the others transitioned later in a life - a couple of them after they had married and raised families as men.

before the embryo had taken on a sex

I despair at this! Where does it come from? Do people think the sex fairy visits the womb to bestow a sex on a foetus?

The sex of the foetus is determined at conception depending on the chromosomes that are contributed by the sperm. There is never a time during which an embryo or foetus does not have a male or female sex (or, very rarely, intersex). The sex differentiation may not be apparent to observation during all the time but the chromosomal make up is there and will determine how the sex organs will develop. There is no time during which an embryo has not "taken on a sex".

The sex of the foetus is determined at conception depending on the chromosomes that are contributed by the sperm.

This is what I also thought was the case - thanks for confirming.

at sex fairy Flora. At least it would be funny if it wasn't becoming a kind of myth.

Magick for ur kind words.
lovely I took hope that the world will be less gendered at some point. When you become sensitive to it you realise it's everywhere
Clothes obviously but also food, toys, books, bicycles, cars, pencil cases, cereal and on and on. It is rammed down our necks all the fucking time. I know there has been threads on it before but the pink and blue kinder eggs? Really?
The world is as gendered as Victorian times. The whole embracing of transgenderism by eg completely square conservative republican voting men like Jenner is an indication of how deeply conservative a movement it is. Dark days for feminism when young non conforming girls cant see any role models for themselves. I'm guilty of being crap role model myself. If I lived on a desert island and dressed purely for my own pleasure I'd wear comfy cotton underwear, t shirts and jeans and wooly jumpers and trainers every damn day and would cut my hair nice and short and never wear makeup. But I'm not on a desert island and I know the punishment for women who don't conform and the rewards for women who are skinny sexy tight clothes etcetera so I feebly diet and style my hair and put on make up badly and wear high heels rarely and so on. I hate myself for it in some ways. . It's very confusing.

Yes, it's really frustrating when you notice, isn't it?

YeahWellMaybe thanks so much for posting here. I have been watching the development of transgender ideology for the past few years and finally started writing about the issue on my blog - my first post is here: communicatingwithkids.com/is-my-child-transgender/ - because I couldn't find the issue covered on any other parenting advice site that wasn't just toeing the party line. It is incredibly difficult to write anything that challenges trans ideology because you will be labelled 'TERF' and 'transphobic' (I personally lost a few friends over my posts on the subject).

Transactivists are very powerful at shutting down debate in this way and unfortunately neo-liberal feminism has joined in. LGBTQ orgs have become trans-centred (eg. see Dawn Ennis at the Advocate) and the group who have been thrown under the bus are lesbians, who are now expected to be sexually attracted to *female penises or be accused of transphobia.

It used to be overwhelmingly men who identified as trans, but over the past year or so there has been a huge spike in young women who, like your daughter, are declaring themselves trans with no previous indication throughout childhood. They are looking at Tumblr forums and Youtube videos which are pushing the trans agenda onto young people much like anorexia sites - young girls are especially vulnerable to this propaganda because many adolescent girls feel disgusted/anxious about their bodies. These sites also encourage young people to view parents who don't buy into the whole trans agenda as bigoted TERFS. Your parents reject the Real You!

Please do check out 4thwavenow.com/about/ - started by a mother in the same position as you, packed with useful info, and a supportive community.

young girls are especially vulnerable to this propaganda because many adolescent girls feel disgusted/anxious about their bodies.

This really resonates with me.

Being a teenager is hard enough. It makes sense that trans issues are being tapped into by teenagers looking for new & "original" ways to rebel. Resources and information are readily accessible online, along with many forums. As it should be for those in genuine need of help and support.

But I don't think that teenage rebellion/shock value tactics can be ignored either. Certainly administering hormones to young women/teenagers who may well be in the throes of rebellion/body issues rather than genuinely transgender, seems totally foolhardy and irresponsible.

Testosterone will leave a young woman with a permanently deeper voice and more body hair, and likely infertile. Puberty blockers followed by testosterone will cause certain infertility for life. This is a great way of erasing women who don't conform to 'feminine' gender stereotypes. We really need to wake up to what trans activists are doing.

YeahWell I read this and thought of you.

www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/why-transgender-kids-should-wait-to-transition

I've also ended up coming to these threads because I have a teenage DD.

Two of her friends are now trans boys. Their explanations as to why they are trans have been very sexist, which has led DD to start stating sexist beliefs also; men do a, women do b kind of stuff.

I also feel like it is having an impact on her development, as she's trying to do the teenage job of finding her own identity, but it is being subsumed by all this narrow gender stuff. She was already very anxious, shy and passive, and I feel that she is being controlled and squashed by other people's needs because of this stuff.

This section and the fourthwavenow blog linked to on here are the only places I've seen talk about the impact on teenagers. I found the two gender critical pieces written by psychologists on there explain what I've found so worrying about this. I feel DD's psychological development is being constricted (which is how the psychologist put it) by this idea that gender identity is a thing we can all uncover in ourselves, when she should just be becoming an adult person instead. And if she doesn't come up with a gender identity it is as if she doesn't matter or doesn't really exist to her peers.

I know this is nothing compared to what Yeahwell is going through, but I really don't know what to do about it.