Can we please talk about "Gender" - I seem to find myself in a muddle thinking about it

[LovelyFriend]

I'm still not perfectly clear on the differing feminist ideas/theories/positions on gender. I've read many threads on here about it and they are enlightening and I have learnt a lot but my mind but still struggles to understand some concepts.

My own feelings veer towards gender being a spectrum - society wants each sex to conform/identify in particular gendered ways. I see that being a woman/man as a very broad spectrum that includes all the ways a biological born woman or man may live and be. I guess by extension then I would view a Transwoman as a biological man and part of the spectrum of "maleness" and a Transman part of the spectrum of "femaleness". (I totally accept any trans persons right to be called by the name/pro noun of their choosing).

Perhaps it is biological physicality I view as a spectrum, rather than gender?

Apologies for my clumsy descriptions!

So I was looking at a RadFem website about an upcoming event that seemed quite interesting.

The event website states:
It is a central part of radical feminist analysis that gender is a tool of women's oppression, not women's liberation. None of the organisers consider ourselves to have an innate gender - neither masculine, feminine, trans, cis, gender queer, or any other gender. We are gender abolitionists who have been raised and socialized as girls and women because of our female bodies* in the context of patriarchy.
Women who view gender differently, as a benign spectrum of self expression rather than a human created power hierarchy, will find other events where they can organise with like minded people. RadFems Resist is designed by and for women interested in radical feminism and those who want to genuinely engage with second wave theory and women's liberationist ideas.

I'd like to understand this statement better - what are gender abolitionists? How does that manifest in daily life? What is "second wave theory"?

Am I one of the "Women who view gender differently, as a benign spectrum of self expression rather than a human created power hierarchy" who they don't want to attend the event? I can't figure it out.

Can anyone provide any insight or recommend any reading on this? It is something I'd really like to be confident discussing (outside of this forum).

I feel like you described too slug.

and it's only now at 47 I can really appreciate how fear of pregnancy, birth control, BC failure etc has coloured my entire adult life and taken up so much energy, caused so much distress and anxiety.

I accept that I present as a woman, and I have certainly been raised and conditioned to present as a woman (as well as to be quiet, stay still, don't argue, shut up etc). Looking back I can see how my life would have been different if I was a man and I was subject to male gendering.

I am comfortable with being a woman but I don't think I particularly feel like any specific gender. Having said that I can accept that I must feel more like a woman than any other gender, as I am female.

I wouldn't have a clue what it is to feel like a man, or feel like a TransPerson. Which does make me wonder how male born people can say that they feel like a woman, or female born people can say they feel like a man.

I understand perfectly how a person might identify strongly as another gender and wish to express themselves as another gender. Yet I don't see how a biological man can know that they really feel like a woman, rather than feel like a man who likes traditionally "feminine" clothing and lifestyle and company.

Another one dipping a toe into this thread.

I personally tend to think of gender as a spectrum a bit like sexuality.

I'm finding the same as you op with regards to my 4 year old dd being obsessed with what is for girls and what is for boys. She likes blue but only because of queen Elsa.

"I also think that for women menstruation and pregnancy are the root cause of oppression. So this is core to my feminist agenda I guess."

Yes, I agree. I would probably add something like "fighting sexual ownership" as well, albeit this is aligned to pregnancy, because this is linked to FGM, rape, forced marriage, different sexual standards etc.

I really like the article from the last page on 'cis' and gender. I can't separate out a feeling of gender from gender roles.

I brought my daughter up to feel that she could do anything: build fairy houses and skateboard brilliantly; have long blond hair and scruffy jeans; be brilliantly clever and able to cook. I was completely burstingly proud of her up until exactly 12 months ago when she cut off her hair and told me she is a boy. Head already emailed school to demand male pronouns and uniform. I was staggered. School referred us to gender clinic, psychiatrists etc who have all said she needs testosterone, her breasts removed and one offered to sort out a donor penis for her - a tiny 5ft1 slight teenager. I am in grief and terror. I will not allow any hormones or surgery for a 16/17 year old. I'm a lifelong feminist as was my mother. That article by RCC made me cry because of it's clarity. It's like a breath of fresh air after all the names I've been called to find someone expressing so well what I feel deep inside. I would like to abolish gender. I can't bear to see my little rebel perform the most conservative caricature of 'male'. It's a nightmare as there is NO support for mothers like me at least I have not found it. I don't want to join transparents or Mermaids. I want to find parents who are prepared to be screamed at and patronised by professionals but refuse to bend to popular treatment of the absolute of trans teens. One of my DDs contemporaries who came out last year has already been on testosterone for 6 months. Irreversibly infertile now
Sorry for the hijack and thanks OP for staring this thread and thanks to the PP who posted the links. Drank them in like water in the desert

Sorry my post is all over the place but my point is that I obviously confused her and have made her feel that being female is shit. My counsellor said I should have honoured her femininity by buying her more pink I never let her have Barbies or excessively 'girly' (what does that mean anyway?) toys/clothes. But it is a gigantic fuck-up and instead of a fab strong woman I've got someone who loathes their female body and is determined to mutilate it

YeahWellMaybe - I read this from time to time and I thought you might find some support there.

perpendiculous thank you so much
What an amazing find. And why haven't I been able to find this before? I would consider myself an excellent researcher. Alternative viewpoints are constantly shit down and hidden

YeahWellMaybe for you. As the (very) ex partner of someone who transitioned, I know damn well there is not much support around for the family and loved ones of prospective transitioners. And it's hard. Everyone just expects you to accept and cope without question, lest you be deemed a bigot. I don't have any words of wisdom and I can't imagine what it's like when it's your child going through this, but have some hand-holding from me.

And sorry, but 'honour her femininity by buying more pink'? Wow. That takes the award for most ridiculous thing I've heard today.

No problem YeahWell. I struggled to find it when I looked for you last night and had to find them on twitter for the direct link.

If you're on twitter, they are called 4thwavenow. They have a tumbler (or tumblr?) too but I don't really understand what that is!

I agree with NiNoKuni about that 'honour her femininity' comment being a load of bulltosh.

Much love yeahwell

yeahwell this sounds so difficult. Can't imagine how hard it is to deal with your child transitioning.

Your dd sounds like she was raised the same way I was. No gender disphoria here.
I'm sure it's nothing you did or didn't do.

Thanks very much for the sympathy. It's very much appreciated. On the lgbt kids threads it's all about supporting parents who support surgical/chemical transition which I don't at least not yet.
And that's mainly because I agree with what many PPs have articulated so well.
I don't know what it means to say you have a male or female brain. If you are biologically male/female then your brain is the corresponding sex imho. Anything after that eg I am good at maths/Map reading/fancy girls/good at football is not because you have a male brain it just means you like things that are culturally construed as male. But as a feminist I object to an understanding of any of the characteristics as biologically male. Bollox to that. Also bollox to Caitlin Jenner saying she knows she is a woman because she has always wanted to wear sexy ladies undies and have her hair and makeup done. Fuck right off. That doesn't equal female. I have no interest in hair do's and nail varnish and have never worn sexy lingerie. I am however a woman. I know this as I have had two children come out of my womb and I menstruate and have breasts and a vagina. I also have a science degree and am good at DIY.
Oh my poor little girl. She is just gay (has a lovely girlfriend) but has internalised anti lesbianism. In her world being transgender and presenting as a straight boy is far more acceptable than presenting as a non conforming female. (Every other girl in her class has long hair, fake tanned legs, loads of makeup etc - massive pressure on them to conform to increasingly narrow acceptable presentation of female).
Sorry for the rant!

yeahwell I think you are right to try and stall her started treatment.

I'm sure there are teenagers who do genuinely feel they should be male when they actually have a female body and gender reassignment is (eventually) the right thing for them.

But I'm equally sure there are many many more teenagers who are simply unhappy (miserable) in their own skin and think a sex change is the answer when it isn't actually right for them.

I always thought someone had to live for years in as the sex they wanted to change to before starting therapy - but obviously this is not the case.
I hope your daughter starts feeling comfortable in her own skin soon.

Her gf presents as a v conforming regular girl and is very sweet. She refers to DD as he and him and also maintains she is straight. They actually tease each other "omg that's so gay" and have heard them talk about other people calling them 'fags'. Wtf? They ARE gay. But the gf comes from a very straight family who can't tolerate homosexuality apparently and are v against gay marriage etc. So this girl brings my Dd home as her boyfriend. Except everyone knows she is a girl although she now looks like a 12 year old boy (uses binders). The mother of the gf is not happy and I can understand how weird she finds it because it is weird. I have a pretty good relationship with Dd but after she spends a lot of time online (on forums?) she hates me, and has spat in my face and physically attacked me for not getting her the treatment she needs
I have been paying for her to see a psychotherapist once a week £50/hr. This woman is herself gay and specialises in sexuality/gender issues. However she also refers to do as 'he'. I just feel that I would like her to have room to back out of the position she is in or move around a bit. But the transgender community is very harsh to people who de transition.
Does anyone else think that the prevalence of transgenderism is an indication of how conservative our world is. Also it is a clear win for the patriarchy to encourage nonconforming girls that they need fixing by male shrinks, surgeons and endocrinologists
What about the gender benders I grew up with like David Bowie or Annie Lennox? Are there any role models like this now? Is Miley Cyrus talking about gender or have I imagined that?

I agree yeahwell that it's deeply conservative. It's not surprising the Motmon church is coming out in favour of it nor that it is prevalent in Iran (possibly the only country with more women transitioning than men).

This might be useful:

dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/transgender-handbook-for-concerned.html?m=1

Thank you so much flora
Fantastic. I should have posted here a long time ago. Wonderful mumsnet. I feel like crying. It's been such a terrifying year fighting 3 docs who are pushing me to go for hormone treatment for her. But surely it's my job as her mum to keep her options open. I mean it was just such a sudden thing that there was no hint of in her childhood. She used to dress up as Madeleine, then Matilda, then Violet from lemony snicket. There was never a hint of this before she got a girlfriend. And it's very very interventionist treatment. I did ring Dr Paul mchugh at john Hopkins hospital in Maryland and he stopped the GRS programme there which was the longest running in USA. He said he stopped it because it doesn't cure gender dysphoria. He was dealing with lots of older transgender people who were really suffering and high suicide and depression rates. He maintains its just plastic surgery for a psychological issue. I asked the doc we saw here who referred her for hormone treatment is he thought she it was psychological or biological and he said biological. I asked what was the biological marker for a transgender person ie how is it measured. He said he maintains it's biological but he can't prove it it's just a feeling he has. fucking wooly thinking if you ask me I think he is a wanker who should be struck off
Jesus sorry for the hijack

yeahwell I'm sorry you've had such a hard time. As women, we worry about the effects of hormonal contraception and later HRT with all the health concerns and worries about strokes. We know the dangers of men taking testosterone as steroids to build muscle and are exposed to heart issues etc. Yet doctors are willing to expose children (and adults) to a lifetime of dependence on artificial hormones that drive a person's body to develop artificially. This is combined with surgery to remove healthy organs and render the person infertile. It's horrifying and in the future this will surely be recognised as the child abuse it is.

There is no evidence yet that there is a biological cause but even if there is, surely this is not the right treatment? Surely it would be better to help people feel at ease with themselves as they are, which would start with doing away with notions that boys like X therefore if I like X I must be a boy.

Good luck and there are plenty of people on here and out there who are not buying into this dangerous development.