Children sexually assaulting other children in previous years at our new kindergarten.

[MilchandCookies]

My DD (3) started kindergarten last week. So far she loves it and has had no real issues. She is in a mixed age group, so children from 3 to 6. (We're in Germany.)

Yesterday a friend told me that when her eldest DD (now 8) was there, there was a seemingly ongoing problem of the older ones taking the younger ones off out of sight and assaulting them. I'm not sure I should say what was done in case it's triggering. She told me this in a very matter-of-fact way, and sort of shrugged when I asked what the kindergarten did about it. The DC crowded us at that point and I didn't have a chance to ask more about it.

I feel like I need to raise this with DD's kindergarten teacher. I want to find out how often the children are left unsupervised (if ever -- I certainly hadn't got the impression they were). I also want to know what safeguards are in place so that this type of thing can't happen again.

What else should I be asking about? I am absolutely horrified that it happened and terrified for my DD, but I don't want to completely overreact.

Before she started, I had had a conversation with DD about no games with no clothes on, and that she could tell her teacher or me about any children making her unhappy or uncomfortable. I honestly thought that was an overreaction on my part, and I was worried I was going to unnecessarily worry her, so I have tried to play it very cool.

Is there anything else I can do in the immediate term to protect her (and DS when he starts in 18 months)? What about longer term? I hope it's ok I've posted this here. The advice and views of the posters here always seems far more balanced and sensible than on the other boards ...

Suggest you post under parenting rather than feminism!

But I'd not call whatever they are doing as sexual assault. I'm assuming it's what we would have called playing doctors and nurses, or you show me yours I'll show you mine sort of thing which is entirely normal at this sort of age. Anything more than this would almost certainly be a one-off incident from a child with some sort of background issue which I'd assume would be dealt with.

However they should be supervised properly and if you have any concerns (real ones based on fact, not hearsay) please do speak to the staff. But don't go in all hysterical shrieking sexual assault.

Six year olds sexually assaulting three year olds in a nursery with staff around . I think you need to give a lot more details for this to make sense. As it is I would assume it was normal body exploration stuff that happens in those ages.

Ok, thanks, I should have probably posted there. I read this board more than any other these days, and I thought some of the more experienced mothers who have similar beliefs and parenting styles may be able to advise. I can have it moved if people feel strongly though.

The incidents involved penetration of the younger ones with objects, and it happened to my friend's DD, among others. The staff were not aware of it happening (multiple times) until she complained. I don't know any more.

I'm not planning on shrieking or being hysterical. I am, however, finding it a bit difficult to guage how much exploration of bodies is normal at that age. DD has never been in childcare before, and I wasn't really expecting to have to deal with this sort of thing so soon. Naive, perhaps, but I'm not sure it warrants the skepticism.

This is not normal behaviour. I have taught a child who did similar to others - it triggered SS involvement, removal of the child from their home and an arrest.

OP maybe talk PANTS to your DD: www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/keeping-children-safe/underwear-rule/

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to say to them what you have been told and ask what steps they have taken to ensure this is not able to happen any more.

Your friend's child is 8 now so an older child who did this would be older than that now. Your friend has suggested that this behaviour by the older child / children isn't something that was specific to them but will have been passed down to the next children as some kind of cultural thing to do at this nursery? That's a really strange thing to think, do you know why she thinks that? Didn't she go to the police? Didn't the kindergarten alert some kind of authority?

This all seems very peculiar.

OP, regardless of what your friend's theories might be, this sort of thing happens a lot more frequently than a lot of people care to think. You can and should ask the Kindergarten about their safeguarding policy. Ulli Freund, the person interviewed in the article I linked to has a very informative website you might want to look at or pass on to Kindergarten staff.

I doubt if children that young have any "cultural memory" passed down over a period of years, but it certainly sounds as though there were some nasty bullies there a few years ago! One has to wonder what they're up to now that they're older. Anyway, I'd keep an eye and an ear open as to what goes on at the kindergarten now.

Do I have this straight: a couple of years ago a number of different six year olds anally and/or vaginally penetrated a number of three year olds with objects while the staff failed to notice? And the nursery is still working? And none of this never made it to the news? How did this number of severely damaged six year olds all happen to go to the same nursery?

If all this did happen it's seriously aberrant behaviour and I'd think the chances of coming across it again are minuscule. I would be seriously worried about the nursery's ability to supervise children inane setting though.

My use of the word "ongoing" has been misleading, I apologise.

I meant that at the time, more than one child was subjected to these "games" and it happened several times before it was reported and stopped.

I didn't mean that children were still doing it now, as far as I know.

I spoke to DD's kindergarten teacher yesterday to ask her whether they were ever left alone to play. Her immediate response was no, and that even when she went to the loo, she asked one of the helpers to watch the children.

Then I asked about a playroom opposite the main entrance. It's got lots of big squishy building block things, like from soft play, and I remember seeing children coming out of there unsupervised when we visited last year. The teacher admitted that later on in the term (not now when so many kids are new), up to five children are allowed in there alone. I've preliminarily said that I don't want DD in there unsupervised full stop, but I'm prepared to revisit that topic next year.

In the group's room there is a sort of gallery up a wooden staircase. The children are also allowed up there to play in small numbers unsupervised. However, there is a big convex mirror in the corner that means the teacher can see what everyone is doing. I don't know if the mirror was there when the incidents took place five (?) years ago, but I think that's where they happened.

I'm going to make an appointment to speak to the manager. I have to know what really happened, and what has been done to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Whirlpool, I don't think my friend did go to the police. I'm seeing her tomorrow again (without DC), so I will ask her more then.

Thanks for the links, uglyswan. Terrifying stuff, but reassuring to know that at least some places are making an effort to stamp down on this.

I also really appreciate the supportive replies. Thank you, everyone.

I am astounded your friend didn't go to the police and social services. I would be worried about what these children are up to now, both in terms of the harm they pose to others and the danger they may be in themselves from being abused.

Having said that, this is such an unusual, aberrant event that the chances of your DD coming across children who will behave similarly must be close to zero.

That is very serious abuse certainly not a case of " bullying " as someone put it.
Surely she went to the police ?
How awful.

I have a child at a German kindergarten and I can totally believe that this could happen because the supervision is lax. It's just normal there - they give children freedom and generally don't worry too much.

It could have been that there was a cycle where one child was affected by something that had happened to them and acted it out on other child(ren) who then acted the same thing out on other children. But without knowing numbers it's uncertain - it could have been a relatively small group of children, for example.

As others have said if the main child and other affected children are no longer there then it's unlikely to happen again. But you are right to ask for reassurance and how they can tell you that it won't happen. IME the idea of supervising children every minute of the time they are in kindergarten is pretty alien to German people. They will supervise 95% of the time, but not 100%, it's just the culture. Some of the older kids in DS' one were walking themselves home by the end of the last term. And it's common to put 6yos in charge of 3yos, not entirely, but mostly.

We have never had any incidents of this nature (that I know of) but for example, DS had several incidents which were not witnessed by teachers.

One time when he was five he had three boys corner him and try to prick him with a drawing pin they had found, which really frightened him.

He was bitten by his friend leaving a mark and a bruise.

There was an incident in the playground where he wanted to climb up onto a high piece of equipment and in climbing up he pulled another child to get himself grip, other child panicked because he was being pulled down and kicked out which hit DS in the throat. I saw this as I was picking him up but the teachers only saw the last part and went to tell off the other child, they were surprised when I pointed out that DS could have pulled this other child to the ground and seriously injured him - accidentally, but still!

When he first started he complained to me that other kids put sand down his shirt and in his pants/trousers. When I mentioned this to the teacher she shrugged and said they are one as bad as another and they all do it.

All of these except the sand one were taken seriously but they weren't noticed at the time. And DS was only there for two years rather than the normal four.

Children of 3-6 in this country would sometimes be unsupervised at school/nursery too - in the toilets, in playhouses etc. When there is one adult per 13, 15, 30 children they are not going to be within sight at all times, it just isn't possible.

This sounds like a very serious but very unusual incident, but it happened 5 years ago OP. It isn't something I would feel anxious about now.

Being partly unsupervised is one issue - I know nothing about German nurseries but if this is the case with all of them maybe you need to find some therefrom of childcare or adopt the mor relaxed German attitude.

Being seriously sexually assaulted while being unsupervised is an entirely different problem. I'd expect this to have been a one-off, a horrific one- off but nonetheless a very rare exception.

That is utter bollocks Qthirties. Three year olds do not have capacity to understand giving or withdrawing consent, their hugs do not have sexual intentions and hugging is a million miles from penetrating another child anally/vaginally with a foreign object!

Boobostwo - judging from his frenetic and garbled posting on the FWR this afternoon, Í doubt Q is trying to add to the discussion in any productive way. Have reported him.

Apologies, I fell for that!

oh give over, Q, that's utterly ridiculous.