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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we talk about Camilla Batmanghedjh?

183 replies

HarveySpectre · 05/07/2015 05:24

Everywhere I look, she is getting totally crucified. Including on MN chat.
I don't get it. Even if she has been bad at financial accounts, she has still done amazing work for kids, for the last 19 years.

People are saying the money could have been 'better spent'. What the fuck do they know about what those kids need??

People are calling for measurable benefits I.e. Improved exam results, employment, reduction in offending/criminal activity. You cant link those things to whether a child should be fed! There is no 'measure of improvement' to providing basic need

To my mind KC thought outside the box and catered for those that absolutely needed help the most. You cant always do that effectively, by conventional methods

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 07/07/2015 21:55

YYYY to deserving poor syndrome.

BertieBotts · 07/07/2015 21:56

But I don't get that impression from CB. At all. Am a bit lost now with comparisons TBH.

LassUnparalleled · 07/07/2015 22:02

The comparisons are drifting apart now.

Garlick · 07/07/2015 22:38

What a fantastic post, Bertie, thank you. I think my parents would be a tad miffed at being lumped together with the inarticulate underclasses Grin But that's a fairly minor aspect. You gave a neat overall summary of the "how does that happen" question which still seems to vex so many.

It was 1980 when XH1 broke my face. A stranger, bless him forever, sat and talked to me on a bench in a freezing town square in the middle of the night. I phoned the police. They said, with clear reluctance, they would come out if I was sure I wanted to press charges. They told me, kindly, they couldn't interfere in domestics and their experience was that I'd withdraw charges after he'd been sorry enough. I didn't call them out. That day, I went into work with a monstrously cut & bruised face. The other women said "bad row?"
That's how it was.

It was 1980 when my mother's friend left her husband after he'd put her in hospital for five weeks. She had a young child. The rest of the village sided with her husband. She lost all her friends, her entire support network, and could only get short-term labouring work. She walked her little boy to school every morning, and every morning the neighbours threw stones at her, called her 'loose' and spat. She couldn't get any financial assistance. She turned to occasional prostitution to keep her child. Her husband still lived in the village.

I don't care about all the things Pizzey did wrong, because she started something that's still evolving and has improved the lives of women immeasurably.

As far as I can gather, there's a similar failure - generally; I don't mean among specific professionals - to grasp just how disordered the lives of many children can be. I suspect Kids Company has offered what is needed: perhaps in a disorganised fashion, and perhaps it's coming up to the time for the organisation to develop as Refuge did. For me, it's all part of changing the inter-generational patterns that people often don't want to think about too much.

Also - well, loud and very confident women.

Weebirdie · 07/07/2015 23:12

Garlick, Im still wondering how you managed to pull off collecting the money then go abroad and spend it on the house?

Was it part of your job, or was it a private collection?

Just how did you pull that quite remarkable feat off?

Garlick · 08/07/2015 00:23

It was private, Weebirdie. I raised funds specifically for the project, but joined up with the charity as they were supporting it - and they wanted me to do some stuff for them, which I did for nothing. In hindsight, they probably had no idea I would actually collect enough for the new house and saw an opportunity to use my professional skills while making helpful noises!

I could have broken some law or other doing what I did. Never mind, the objective was met.

Garlick · 08/07/2015 00:24

... I asked people to make their cheques out to the project, not the charity, btw!

Weebirdie · 08/07/2015 00:24

That makes sense. Smile

BertieBotts · 08/07/2015 10:43

Yes, I didn't mean to lump anybody in with "inarticulate lower classes" - the point is that it does cross classes but how open it is tends to differ. At least in my experience. On the "deprived estate" next to where I used to live I made friends with one young woman who in one breath described how her ex had held her up against the wall by her throat (after they'd split, just in a general argument) and in the next mentioned that she was looking forward to the weekend when he would have her son for contact and she'd get some time off. Later that day as we walked to a different children's centre they commented negatively about a woman who walked past with a string of eight or nine children, she had an obvious black eye and they attributed it to her partner. I wasn't really clear whether they were judging her or judging him at the time. (They knew her.) The children would act out violence at playgroup quite freely. It was different from the middle class playgroups which I had also attended, although violence of course happens in every class, it just comes out differently. But it's generally really difficult for anybody entrenched in one lifestyle to really imagine what it is like to be a part of the other. I just observed snapshots, really, I haven't lived it.

And yes - actually, I do think it's entirely relevant that the general public and many organisations don't really understand the mechanics of how a child ends up being SO disordered that they are violent, aggressive, oppositional, they steal, they take drugs, they have sex very very young. It's not simply about a "naughty" child, their needs are extremely complex. Whether KC is meeting them, I don't know. Certainly the point about them being self referrals and hence not really meeting the needs of who they need to meet is key for me. But on the other thread, one of the first posts was a typical judging one, talking about teenagers with knives and fighting being given brand new trainers and gadgets. That is so simplistic, I don't even know where to begin. But certainly when dealing with kids with the kind of issues that KC hopes to help, they aren't going to be sitting around quietly minding their own business and getting on with homework or whatever in these clubs. If you write them off for their erratic behaviour, then what happens to them? They do get written off, cut off, kicked out, excluded, from homes, from schools, from foster placements, I know that they are difficult to deal with, but you're just shoving them further and further away. It's the age old question of how early do you need to intervene, at which point is it "too late" and what do you do with the ones for whom it's already too late? Mostly the boys end up in prison, but not for very long, and the girls end up with a string of removed children, creating more messed up lives.

TBH, it is such a mountainous and messy task that I totally take my hat off to anybody who is attempting to do anything about it, and I don't really care how efficient they are, because it's perfectly clear that the most efficient system in the world wouldn't be able to handle the demand anyway. If anybody has a better solution, then I'm interested.

Garlick · 08/07/2015 12:17

YYYYY, Bertie. I did get what you meant about class/environment/normality, too. For a while I lived on a massive complex of flats in London's East End - walking through was really upsetting, because of the incessant high-decibel shouting and crying :(

Both Pizzey and Batmanghelidjh talk about the therapeutic value of unconditional love. I can see why this looks weird & freaky to 'normal' people who have experienced unconditional love. But I never have! None of the people in any of my groups have. Children are wired to be loved unconditionally and, when this isn't forthcoming, we go on to seek it inappropriately in later life. Instead of learning emotional security, we learn to fight for love, to earn it or steal it, or to reject it as a sham. Since this is a huge topic at the very root of all psychology, there's little sense in going on about it too much here. But, because it's such a massive thing, few people have the moral courage to address it. EP & CB had the courage and conviction to attempt this: giving more love; imposing fewer conditions.

People don't like women with exceptional self-belief. Societies are uncomfortable with being asked to love shouting, fighting, thieving & rejecting people. Systems don't like anything with few conditions. Pioneers are always vilified.

Again, I'm not canonizing either woman. And I'm not devaluing them.

(In case anyone wants to know: I had some great therapists who modelled unconditional love for me, and who helped me learn to do it for myself :) )

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 08/07/2015 12:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

shaska · 08/07/2015 12:58

I went away and Buffy came back. Buffy now if you leave again I'll think it's my fault, so please don't.

Glad to see a thread about this, though missed the chat one. And I don't have enough to add, really. I expect there is bullshit on both sides - I've heard that organisationally, management of KC is maybe not brilliant, but I've also got, as others have said, an enormous amount of respect for anyone who's trying to help. What makes someone kickass at running this sort of charity might not make them kickass at running it in a hyper-organised, entirely evenhanded and non-enemy-making way, and I doubt CB is the only charity head in that position.

It gets on my tits the way certain Naice Friends of mine are facebook statusing the shit out of it, as though it's The Greatest Human Rights Wrong Ever Committed - but that's my prejudice. After all, they don't give a shit about tower hamlets most of the time, so even if they seem to think that it's more important that CB is seen as a saint than the charity is run absolutely as well as it could be, at least they're involved in some way. And who's to say she's not just doing the best she can, even if that is flawed.

That all said, if I can smugly posit a conspiracy theory just in case I'm right... outside odds on this being in some way related to the whole Lutfur Rahman debacle?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 08/07/2015 13:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LassUnparalleled · 08/07/2015 13:17

But there has to come a point where "attempting to do something about it" isn't good enough if the attempts aren't achieving anything.

KC is being asked to quantify in some way what it does. Nothing seems very clear beyond some of their clients get a hot meal.

shaska · 08/07/2015 13:24

lass I agree that some record keeping is needed, but I'm not sure how we measure acheivement. Do we say 'still alive' as a pp said? Do we say 'not in prison at 18?'. Do we say, 'hasn't joined IS yet?'.

I do know that among other things KC funds PHDs studying how to break the cycle that leaves these kids where they are. To me that seems very valuable.

And I'm not against the providing of hot meals, be they literal ones or partly figurative in the sense of knowing that there is someone/somewhere there for you. I am happy for the provision of hot meals for those to need them to be funded by the government or by the rich should they chose to donate. So I wouldn't personally necessarily go 'well it's just some hot meals' as an example of failure.

Garlick · 08/07/2015 13:28

You could have a look at their job therapy page, Lass, and follow the links if you're interested. The pages on play, psychotherapy and complementary therapies also make good sense to me :)

BertieBotts · 08/07/2015 13:46

The transcripts at the bottom of that link are very eye opening as well. Nice resource!

BertieBotts · 08/07/2015 13:47

The one I am reading is called "I can't calm down I want to beat the hell out of you".

Kundry · 08/07/2015 13:57

Really? It was those pages, especially the comp therapies pages that made me think that charity was a big pile of expensive woo bollocks (in SGB's immortal phrase)

Yes massage can help the lymphatic system. That's only of benefit if you have a disorder of your lymphatic system which 99.999% of children do not.

A quick google of Emotional Focussed Therapy was also interesting. There is an Emotionally Focussed Therapy which appears to be a legitimate form of therapy but has no link to acupressure or acupuncture which they appear to be linking to what they do. However if you google it with acupressure you discover Emotional Freedom Techniques which is based on acupuncture and unsurprisingly has no evidence and is a stinking pile of woo. FWIW there are no meridians, no physical and emotional blockages and no evidence for acupuncture beyond placebo at all. If this is all the psychotherapy they do, they shouldn't bother.

And reflexology? Really???

The Child Poverty Busting Programme also appeared to be nothing of the sort. First it quotes the much debated 36000 children. It then seems to be a programme for giving people stuff. Now clearly giving someone who hasn't got a bed, a bed, is a good thing and should be applauded but it isn't poverty busting by any measure. You are still poor, just now you have a bed. It's overselling what it is.

How it came to employ so many people becomes clear as the place is a quack therapist's paradise.

Garlick · 08/07/2015 15:31

Touch-based therapies are really helpful in re-establishing emotional balance, Kundry. Think about a child whose only experience of an adult's touch is being hit or manhandled. Think about a person of any age, who's learned not to have any feelings. Think what it's like when your main source of pride is your ability to withstand pain.

Kundry · 08/07/2015 15:45

If they are that effective why do they need dressing up in a pile of pseudoscience? If they work (not saying they don't) it should be perfectly possible just to say so in simple words with simple evidence, a bit like you have.

Instead it's dressed up with crap about lymphatics, waste products, universal healing and ancient meridians.

Garlick · 08/07/2015 15:52

Yeah, well, the practitioners believe all that stuff Wink In my experience, folks respond a lot better to pseudo-scientific theories of holistic health than "Well, you seem a bit fucked up. Let's try introducing you to non-threatening physical touch, shall we?"

I spend a bloody fortune on massages during my first couple of years with therapy. I knew what I was doing, but the practitioners would have run a mile if I'd told them I needed a human to apply soothing touches all over my body Grin So I repeated the appropriate justifications!

Garlick · 08/07/2015 15:53

There is something in reflexology, btw. It's true that uric acid can build up in the feet (gout).

Kundry · 08/07/2015 15:55

There really really isn't anything in reflexology. It definitely isn't a treatment for gout either. It's a nice foot rub.

VillaVillekulla · 08/07/2015 16:04

Apologies if this has already been posted but I found this link news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6080096.stm on the other thread really interesting. In case link doesn't work it's CB on record making claims about single black mother being at fault for many problems experienced by young men.

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