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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we talk about Camilla Batmanghedjh?

183 replies

HarveySpectre · 05/07/2015 05:24

Everywhere I look, she is getting totally crucified. Including on MN chat.
I don't get it. Even if she has been bad at financial accounts, she has still done amazing work for kids, for the last 19 years.

People are saying the money could have been 'better spent'. What the fuck do they know about what those kids need??

People are calling for measurable benefits I.e. Improved exam results, employment, reduction in offending/criminal activity. You cant link those things to whether a child should be fed! There is no 'measure of improvement' to providing basic need

To my mind KC thought outside the box and catered for those that absolutely needed help the most. You cant always do that effectively, by conventional methods

OP posts:
Ledare · 07/07/2015 04:54
  • Erin Pizzey comparison.
BertieBotts · 07/07/2015 08:58

The original refuges you mean? You certainly couldn't run them like that today. But at the time they were desperately needed.

I'm in two minds absolutely. On the one hand Erin Pizzey (and so on) are clearly self centred narcissists, which long term does not make for a successful organisation to help people in real terms. But on the other hand, perhaps causes like this DO need that kind of grandiose, self important personality to force them into the public consciousness. Would we have anything like the scale of refuges we have today had Pizzey not done what she did? Looking at the US for example - there are shelters, but there is no nationwide organisation and network to move women between them, there is no set code of practice, one shelter might be brilliant whereas another is problematic in how they operate.

motherinferior · 07/07/2015 11:13

Pizzey clashed horribly with the feminists of Women's Aid, suggesting that women colluded in their own abuse. By 1980 she'd really blotted her copybook.

Ledare · 07/07/2015 11:16

No, it was a fictional homeless charity at the start of the "squatting movement" (Grin)

Some clients were victims of DV but others were families, people with substance abuse problems etc

I agree with you that Erin did work which was absolutely needed and that, as you say, perhaps it came about because people like that are the way they are.

The book describes a very chaotic approach but the worst characters were the people at the top, the society patrons. They had a jolly fundraising ball where they all dressed in rags ffs!

Ledare · 07/07/2015 11:34

yy motherinferior, that particular stance comes over loud and clear in her novels. I was about twelve when I first read one of them and thought it was bollocks even then.

motherinferior · 07/07/2015 11:53

And the reason there is a national refuge movement is because a hell of a lot of feminists got on with setting them up, frequently unglamorously and in ramshackle houses. I was involved with our local one back in the day, when I was a young warthog.

Garlick · 07/07/2015 12:07

I agree with you that Erin did work which was absolutely needed and that, as you say, perhaps it came about because people like that are the way they are.

I agree, too, and also see some parallels between Pizzey and Batmanghelidjh. I knew Pizzey back then and, yes, found her irritating. She has, I feel, been judged retrospectively. All of the criticism levelled at her is based on psychological & social theories which simply didn't exist at the time she was blazing the trail. She's being judged for using 'incorrect' language, simplifying the answers to "why do they have them back?" and basing her understanding on her extensive observations - she was the only person making these observations, how could she adopt theories that hadn't even been developed yet? She's been rubbished for not having a time machine.

I think her reasons for "not being a feminist" are daft and, in effect, she has been a feminist all her life despite that.

As a vaguely relevant sidetrack, I once quit a well-respected women's charity for reasons I suspect CB would recognise. I raised a lot of money for a project I was personally involved with. At handover time, I was told the charity was changing its perspectives and the money would not be given to 'my' project but redistributed among different projects (some of which looked, to me, directly opposed to the charity's women-only focus.) I walked out and got on a plane to deliver the money myself. I am sure this was seen as irresponsible, selfish and what-have-you; you can reframe any series of actions any way you like. But I don't regret it - my lovely donors funded a new house for the project, which is still helping the most disadvantaged girls.

oddfodd · 07/07/2015 12:07

whiteribbon.org is owned by Erin Pizzey and hosted by 'A Voice for Men'. It has all sorts of made up obnoxious women-hating 'facts' on it, like 'the stereotype that we seem to all accept now of the helpless, innocent woman who is beaten on by a brutish, thuggish man and needs to run away represents perhaps only 4 or 5 percent of all domestic violence cases and that almost all other cases are more complicated than that.'

She says that 60 percent of the women who came to the Chiswick refuge were as violent as their partners or indeed were entirely responsible for the violence. Hmm

Her mother was abusive to her but that really doesn't excuse her spouting all this MRA crap.

I think I'm with SGB on this. I'm sure that KC does some good work. But they have been untouchable/beyond criticism for years. A charismatic leader who goes unchallenged can be quite dangerous

Garlick · 07/07/2015 12:22

Yes, a charismatic leader who goes unchallenged is dangerous! Without exception. I still think there's too much arse-covering going on amongst those who let her go unchallenged. Throwing mud at the fallen idol - happens a lot. Fortunately, CB seems to be getting around to extricating herself with some dignity; that's hard for a narc Wink

motherinferior · 07/07/2015 15:48

Pizzey was the contemporary of a lot of feminists with a rather different political analysis - it was the 1970s, ffs, not the 1950s.

SolidGoldBrass · 07/07/2015 15:55

I have heard that another reason why a lot of feminists-from-those-days don't think much of EP was because plenty of them were getting on with doing the work of setting up refuges and yet she was carrying on as though she was the first person ever to think of such an idea.

She also had a tendency not to take (reasonably valid) criticism: complaints were made that the original Chiswick refuge was filthy as well as overcrowded and she had a tantrum about how 'middle class' it was to worry about dirt - she regarded her own slobbishness as proof of moral superiority, or claimed to. And TBH that was, actually, potentially harmful because you still get women (in abusive, dangerous situations) thinking, I can't go to a refuge, it's all dirt and chaos and even if he's attacking me every night at least I've got clean sheets and no fleas....

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 07/07/2015 16:23

2I have heard that another reason why a lot of feminists-from-those-days don't think much of EP was because plenty of them were getting on with doing the work of setting up refuges and yet she was carrying on as though she was the first person ever to think of such an idea."

This ^

Women have been providing refuges for other women since the at least the 19th century. EP did not invent the concept.

Garlick · 07/07/2015 16:44

This is what Pizzey actually says on whiteribbon.org:-

"I recognised that domestic violence was a generational family issue. I recognised that those women who were violent and violent towards their children needed long-term therapeutic intervention ... we created community housing for women and children who needed to learn to control their violent and dysfunctional behaviours.

"I discovered that 62 of the women were violence-prone (victims of violent childhood trauma) and that 48 of the women were innocent victims of their partner’s violence. ... We urgently need to think about intergenerational violence as the root cause for all family violence."

This is not the same as the partial quotes above, which often seem to be wheeled out whenever her name's mentioned.

I'm an abused woman who's done 10+ years of intensive therapy to amend the values learned from my birth family. My partners were more violent towards me than their other partners, due to my learned relationship patterns. My siblings did, indeed, go on to replicate those patterns in their relationships. No-one should ever be abused. But ignoring the - now widely-acknowledged - fact that we model our relationship styles on our parents' means looking at half the picture. It is not anti-women to respect the complexity of the problem.

Garlick · 07/07/2015 16:50

She doesn't seem to say what the sample size was; I'm assuming 110!

She uses the expression "violence-prone women" a lot, which pisses people off. When you listen, she's talking about women who have learned to incorporate violence in their 'normal'. Alongside all the women in my recovery groups, this was true for me. I've never gone around beating people up. But I accepted & expected violence in my relationships, so that's what I got. All of us did.

And I "was no angel", stood up for myself and "gave as good as I got" although I didn't knock my husband's teeth through his face, so not quite as good as I got. My style was really combative, though. Not too many battered women recognise themselves in the stereotype of the wilting flower helpless before the blows.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 07/07/2015 17:45

Garlick, that may ring true for you, but I didn't grow up in a violent family, not by any means, yet I was also in abusive marriage. It wasn't normal for me, and I wasn't modelling my marriage on that of my parents. No, actually I did try to model my marriage according to the norms I grew up with, but it wasn't possible because I was married to someone who had no interest in forming a normal, stable partnership.

I've got to say I find that view deeply offensive. At the time I was in that situation, that mindset actually excused men like my ex-husband because there was a prevailing idea that women who are abused are only getting what they are used to, and may even be instigating it, and therefore don't really need help because they are where they want to be. That is not true. It's very flawed. black and white thinking. It may be the case for some, but I suspect it's not a majority.

Garlick · 07/07/2015 18:21

Good grief, I never suggested people don't need help if they're trapped in a lifetime abuse cycle Hmm How on earth did you read that from my post about doing shedloads of therapy? Point is, Pizzey didn't say it either.

It sounds like you were one of the 48 and I was among the 62. I hope you're all better now :)

HarveySpectre · 07/07/2015 18:52

I fail to see evidence of CB being a narcissist Confused

Have any of you read any of her books?

Shes a confident extrovert, bossy?

These accusations are what is making me doubt the accusations are authentic

Shes getting a proper shoeing...her ability to manage, her 'professionalism', her judgement, het size, her personality, her motives, her honesty...

Its all a bit mental imo

OP posts:
HarveySpectre · 07/07/2015 19:19

If be really interested to hear Pie n Mash opinion of Kids Company

OP posts:
Garlick · 07/07/2015 19:27

Harvey, I mentioned "raging narcissists" upthread. I didn't necessarily mean with a mental disorder causing a disconnect from reality, I meant the uncommon of self-belief needed to get things moving in a big way Grin What others mean by it, I can't say.

Uncommon self-belief is an unpopular quality in women generally, I think.

BertieBotts · 07/07/2015 19:38

[In response to Saskia @ 17:45]

Right, okay, but it's a misnomer, because there is no such thing as a relationship where the woman is a wilting flower and the man is a thug troll. People are not that one dimensional. You see it on here all the time, women concerned that their partner can't possibly be abusive because he is nice sometimes. So she is correct when she says that this image doesn't represent most (if any) abusive relationships, but it's not because the majority consist of equal violence/force from both sides, it's just because people in general are more nuanced than that.

What Erin Pizzey actually noticed when she stated that women who come from violent households attract violence and women "give as good as they get" (rarely true, because men have societal and cultural power and status over women as a class) is a class and culture pattern. This has very little to do with dynamics of relationship abuse, which transcend culture, class, race and sexuality. But it is absolutely true that there are pockets of culture within the UK (and elsewhere, presumably, but I have only personally witnessed it within the UK) where violence is abjectly and perfectly normal, seen as a natural communication method, a necessary tool, just an occupational hazard of being human, basically. Violence is an accepted and expected part of life, and of course, this transfers into romantic relationships. Where the relationship is healthy, respectful and communicative (which is less likely because when you have an expectation of violence, you're less likely to know about and/or instinctively use tools of non violent communication, but it is possible) this is of no consequence and the violence is either directed outside the relationship, cools off completely, or equally matched and considered a normal part of a relationship, rather than being experienced as abuse. But where there is an abusive context to the relationship, violence is the primary tool of abuse.

We have made a great and grave mistake in categorising physical abuse as a separate thing to so-called emotional abuse and control. ALL abuse is about control. Physical violence is just a tool. It's a more immediately life threatening tool, which is why they are differentiated, but it is NOT the root of abuse, that is backwards. Not all abusers will become violent. I believe that most agencies now understand this, but the general public understanding still assumes violence to be a separate thing, the stereotypes also do, and hence our own unconscious beliefs about what is "real" abuse do. Erin Pizzey also makes this mistake, albeit in 1982 when perhaps abuse dynamics were less understood (? I have no idea what general/feminist commentary was on this issue at the time, I wasn't born.) - she mistakes violence for abuse, where it is not necessarily. Violence can be abuse (in the sense of being a tool to gain control through fear) but it can also be panic, self defence, a coping mechanism, a "normal" form of communication, a sense of honour or pride, and many of these things are complex in and of themselves and can come from the abuser or victim.

There is no such thing as a little neat explanation of abuse, why it happens and how we can prevent it, there just isn't, I don't believe there ever will be. I believe that the type of victim who comes from the violence-expecting environment or culture is overrepresented partly because of this idea that it's only abuse if he hits you, partly because if you come from this type of environment and don't really overcome that (Which is bloody hard, BTW, because you have to unlearn basically everything that you have ever learned about human interaction and relationships, all of this we learn subconsciously, not consciously, it's not like you can go "Ah, I've been making toast wrong all these years, silly me!" and change it, because it's hundreds of thousands of tiny microcommunications, assumptions, body language, reactions, and god knows how many other things. You can't just reprogramme your brain to address an issue rationally when your entire life you've learned that this situation requires a fight-or-flight adrenaline response. Think about it this way: If somebody told you that you were invincible, you'd still have a really really hard time walking calmly across a busy motorway, because everything you have learned up until this point is screaming at you that it would be a terrible idea.) - sorry, longest parentheses ever! - if you don't overcome that, you're likely to feel extremely uncomfortable in a normal/healthy relationship and unconsciously seek out the familiar, which means a repetition of abusive behaviours even if "not as bad" as the last one. And then partly as well because if both you and your (male) partner grew up in a culture where violence was accepted it's unlikely that either of you learned tools for how to communicate non-violently, so a relationship is more likely to have abusive dynamics than emotionally healthy ones. (Sorry am repeating self slightly). I believe (though this is just a theory) that in violence-accepted cultures there is also a bias towards misogyny, and that combination of misogyny + reliance on violence is also toxic and likely to lead to abusive dynamics.

And then there is shame. Where violence-accepted culture occurs in lower socio-economic classes it is likely to be more open whereas when violence-accepted culture occurs in higher socio-economic classes, it is extremely likely to be hidden, behind closed doors, not for public knowledge. A doctor, teacher or lawyer risks far more by exposing a violent nature or gaining a criminal record than a casual worker, blue-collar worker or somebody who makes a living from criminal activity does. Women also know this and feel guilty (and perhaps ashamed themselves) so there is more incentive for victims either from cultures where violence is not accepted, or cultures where violence is hidden/private, to keep such things hidden, not to seek help, to deal with it themselves rather than involving anybody else lest their secret be discovered. Victims from higher socio-economic classes might be more able to escape from abuse themselves without needing refuges, either having family/friends with enough space to put them up, being able to fund legal advice, being able to rent somewhere independently, or stay in a hotel for example. So women from violence-accepting culture are overrepresented in the refuge situation, but that does not mean that we should deduce this is the main type of abuse victim or that this is any great illustration of abuse. We must always remember to look at the bigger picture.

Then lastly, I understand that people have taken their knowledge of EP as a person to colour their views of her "observations" but for me, Garlick is correct that she is pretty astute in these observations, it's just the analysis which is massively off. The text is slammed as being victim blaming, and perhaps it is, but I don't think that the observations themselves are - on the contrary they provide a useful insight into that question of why women go back or why women appear to choose violent partners over "nice guys". It's not their fault, they don't ACTUALLY want to be abused, beaten, whatever, it's just that the pattern of their life up to that point necessarily led them there. Certainly it's an extremely outdated and problematic text and there are far more up to date publications which explain it better. But I don't think we should discount the experiences of women such as Garlick who have genuinely lived through this kind of thing. Just because an abuser is overall in the wrong and a victim overall innocent does not mean that the abuser has never acted in kindness, and the victim has never acted in spite. And them having done so is not evidence that the relationship was equal in dynamic from both sides.

(Apologies, this was FAR longer than I intended! Blush And nothing at all to do with Camilla Batmanghedjhligh.)

TheWordFactory · 07/07/2015 19:39

I worked with children in the care and social justice systems for years.

I fully understand that measuring outcomes for such young people is not an exact science. That 'still alive' will often be the most positive thing you can say.

I have no issue with food, money, clothes and stuff being handed out.

However, I think any charity should be able to show categorically how much food, money, clothes and stuff has been handed out and how much that cost.

I also think that any organisation should regularly assess what it is doing and how it is doing it, to see if it can do it differently, more easily, cheaper, more effectively.

KC don't seem to have proper records of any of this.

Weebirdie · 07/07/2015 19:43

I walked out and got on a plane to deliver the money myself.

How were you able to do that?

Had all the money been paid to you?

Was it in your bank account?

SoljaBonita · 07/07/2015 19:50

Bertie what a fantastic post, lots to think about there

SolidGoldBrass · 07/07/2015 21:11

EP did have a bit of a point about women who have grown up in households where violence was normalized, and she wasn't completely wrong in pointing out that women are also capable of physical aggression, of course.

But she's repeatedly demonstrated herself to be incapable of getting her head out of her arse and listening to anyone else (a few years back I picked up a collection of her articles in a charity shop: the arrogance and the contempt for other people and the self-promotion are breathtaking.).

LassUnparalleled · 07/07/2015 21:26

I think EP suffered from "Oliver Twist is not real and is not a credible portrait of what a child brought up such brutal conditions would be like " syndrome.

That is a syndrome I've just made up but I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at. It's otherwise the "deserving poor syndrome "

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