Being silenced/feeling voiceless

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Can we talk about this?

There were some amazing threads on here a few years ago, about rape and about 'small' sexual assaults, and I remember so many posters saying they'd suddenly found a way to talk about something that had shaped them as people. It seemed really powerful to me. But I was wondering if we're actually going backwards in terms of feeling able to speak up.

I was in a meeting yesterday, and noticing how some women (including me) do that classic 'I don't know if I'm saying this very well' kind of minimising of their own points. I was really struck that someone said 'I need to learn the language to say this' - as if she was being inarticulate, rather than as if people weren't bothering to listen to what she was saying (which was closer to the case).

I keep on feeling this way, especially about all the debates raging around gender identity issues - I just don't have the language to say what I want to say. I can't help feeling as if all of us who disagree are just miscommunicating. Does anyone else feel that? I don't feel as if I have the language to talk about what makes me feel hurt and upset by words like 'cis' - I think it's a real feeling, and I think it is related to sexual violence, but I don't feel very able to put it into words, especially outside MN.

Does anyone else feel like this?

labels don't mean much

Unfortunately - forgive me if I'm wrong, just going on your last post - it was the gender label that was placed on you that meant that people pressurised you into doing things you hated and prevented you from doing the things you want and led to some difficult times for you. So unfortunately I don't think labels are meaningless in the sense that it doesn't matter what label is attached to you. I think they can be very damaging because they alter our perception of 'reality' and of ourselves. I can certainly see why, after everything you've been through, you feel 'meh' about being labeled 'cis', but I can also see why others strongly object to it. Either way, glad that you are feeling comfortable to 'just' be you.

society also needs to stop trying to pressure those kids/adults into being something they aren't, and needs to get over the mentality that kids who don't conform to gender expectations need to change.

Amen to that.

And I do know what you mean about labels. But I also think they can have a positive function, and you can see people struggling when they feel as if everyone else has a label that identifies them, and they don't. Like the woman I mentioned early in the thread, who was unable to call herself a lesbian but seemed to be struggling to find another way to express who she was.

I also noticed myself, the other day, having a knee-jerk reaction against being asked 'do you identify as x' and wanting to say 'I am x'. Not that there is a great difference between the two statements, but for me it mattered, because at the moment I'm getting quite a bit of low-level 'oh, you're just playing at being x'. I think it's when something like that is going on, that you want to get behind a label and own it.

Oh, I see what you mean - yes, I agree. And people also vary in how much they want to tell you what label they use, I think - some people really like to talk about it and others don't, which is fair enough.

It's funny though, isn't it? Everyone is 'different'. But everyone feels 'different' in different ways!

What I find difficult is exactly what you say - you know you can present in a certain way and it will make life that bit easier. And it becomes a self-reinforcing thing, that everyone figures out 'ah, if I do this, then I'll get fewer misconceptions'. And you form a group identity. But then, is that a group identity that reinforces stereotypes?

I had a very funny (and interesting - I'm not knocking her!) conversation with a mate a while back, that has really stuck in my head. She mentioned how her haircut, which was short and edgy, could be seen as 'appropriating' lesbian culture. And on the one hand, I totally got what she meant. But on the other, I couldn't help finding it funny, too - because it is, isn't it?

laurierf "I wonder if it is better to question the idea that the mind is somehow separate from the body in terms of 'illusion' rather than 'delusion', because I think it's the word 'delusion' that has made some uncomfortable."

I really don't like the idea of bending meanings of words and reality to fit people who find the meaning or reality uncomfortable. An 'illusion' is something we admit is a mistake or a trick of the light/eye. A delusion is a belief that we are not mistaken and it is not a trick of the light/eye/mind/whatever. It is having lost touch with reality in that area.

Yes, I feel the same… but to call someone 'delusional' is seen to be an insult (because it is frequently used as an insult, so absolutely fair enough that it instantly puts people on the defence) and if this shuts down the conversation, that's not great. Equally, however, what I find strange is that I don't know any medical professional who believes the mind is some sort of independent entity from the body (of course there must be some), so I find it strange that people are being given intensive hormone treatment and surgery whilst still using such language. I understand treating someone with the idea that you will improve their quality of life but do the medical professionals treating the problem of feeling "your mind doesn't match your body" really believe that this is a problem that should be addressed by altering the body through hormones and surgery? Maybe experience has shown that altering the body is more 'effective' than trying to alter the framework of the mind that stems from that body. As I've said many times, I'm new to all this so maybe that's the case.

"to call someone 'delusional' is seen to be an insult (because it is frequently used as an insult, so absolutely fair enough that it instantly puts people on the defence) and if this shuts down the conversation, that's not great."

I don't know if it is frequently used as an insult. I know it is seen as negative, and pointing out anything negative will put people on the defensive, like 'you have lost touch with reality', 'you are not well mentally', etc. The thing about delusional people I have found is that there is a pattern to their resistance to hearing the truth. It usually begins with distractions and subject changing and if you persist it turns into baseless refutation, then accusations and guilt-tripping, then fury and threats, then melt-down. It doesn't matter how sensitively or sweetly you sugar-coat it when it is the truth itself that is being resisted and causes the defensive behaviour.

"Equally, however, what I find strange is that I don't know any medical professional who believes the mind is some sort of independent entity from the body (of course there must be some), so I find it strange that people are being given intensive hormone treatment and surgery whilst still using such language."

I suppose medical professionals who dish out prescriptions don't tend to think too hard about this - I hear you can even get breast augmentation on the NHS.

"Maybe experience has shown that altering the body is more 'effective' than trying to alter the framework of the mind that stems from that body."

I dunno, there's a big lobbying group out there who are keen to advise on best practice and medical professionals are probably just going along with this 'current thinking' on the subject.

Erm ... "to call someone 'delusional' is seen to be an insult" - I suspect the very large number of people whose conditions provoke delusions would have something to say about that. And it wouldn't be "Oh, misuse another word then! It's fine to use my symptoms as an insult you retard!"

If we're looking for honest and appropriate language to describe states of being, re-assigning vocabulary is the last thing we should do.

As to whether GID is a delusion - I don't know. As an anorexic, I didn't "feel like a fat person in the wrong body." I believed I was a fat person. While I see far more similarities between gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia than the trans community currently wants to admit, I don't think it's the same thing. GID is more like faith than dysmorphia: this opens debates about when faith becomes delusion and so on, but the core question is actually what is identity?*

Anorexic me self-identified as a very fat young woman, which I wasn't. But I believed I was physically fat. However - when you look at the ways in which people self-identify, there are a hell of a lot of misconceptions about. It might even be normal to have a self-image at odds with objective reality. Trouble is that, when this becomes a problem for an individual, we usually try to align their self-understanding with their facts. We don't tell the rest of the world to go along with them (unless they're dangerously mad dictators, in which case it's prudent to say 'your excellency, your nation is the envy of the world!')

Now I've confused myself with all these significant implications. Hardly surprising it's difficult to find the right language

xposted, Paw :) There is tremendous interest in finding out what 'mind' is and whether it really exists. No answers so far, though it's thrown up some astonishing side discoveries about nervous systems and how they work.

I guess we should be telling people on MN to stop saying "you're delusional OP!" or "your DH is delusional"!

They don't mean that they are suffering from a condition that provokes delusions.

Very true, laurie. Delusional people are in no position to complain, however, as most of them don't know they're delusional I wonder if that's why we don't mind misusing the word 'comatose', either?

No worries Garlick
laurierf "I guess we should be telling people on MN to stop saying "you're delusional OP!" or "your DH is delusional"! They don't mean that they are suffering from a condition that provokes delusions."

I suppose I don't really see that much - perhaps I haven't witnessed any bun fights in a while - but it is worth remembering that delusions are common - so there will be a significant number of MN posters who are delusional or are in relationships with delusional people.

I thought a delusion was a belief that exists despite proof to the contrary. As it isn't possible (as far as I can see) to prove that another person's mind isn't in the wrong body (as it isn't possible to prove a negative), I think it wouldn't be fair to call being trans a delusion.

And 'delusion' might not be an insult as a medical term, but calling someone 'delusional' is IME. It tends to mean (round here anyway) that a person is either too stupid to understand the opposing evidence, or too stubborn / closed minded to accept it.

As an aside, I don't think I've ever been in a conversation which focussed my mind so much on my use of language, but I really like it.

Massive x-post, sorry!

An aside - I wonder if anyone here has been through the terrifying experience of being drawn into the world of a delusional person?

I have, so has dp and I think it causes ptsd. It is so frightening when the penny drops and you think "OH - MY- GOD...... they weren't mucking about all this time... they actually genuinely believe this to be true"...
It is deeply disturbing - it makes me feel panicky thinking about it.

Yes, Paw, and yes to the PTSD too. My excessive exposure to unreal facts has left me very rigorous about fact-checking. It makes me a tad boring and slows me down sometimes, but I'd rather be this way. Thanks to all this, I'm usually very fast to spot fatal inconsistencies. I'm getting good at deciding when to let them pass, as well, which is important socially.

Bit of a sidetrack, I suppose! Sorry.

There is a thread on here about Jack Monroe. She has been criticised on Twitter for being cis and a terf, even though she identifies as gender queer. I don't think there is a going to be some kind of situation where women who identify as gender queer are going to allowed to be the exception in the way women are being treated over these issues.

I think initially some women got a reprieve for calling themselves gender queer, but as more women are realising what cis is and it doesn't describe them, more women are saying they are non binary, gender queer etc, including women whose expression is quite feminine. People just switch over to talking about cafab privilege rather than cis privilege to push those women back.

So I don't think having different language will stop people trying to be negative about women; if enough women 'master' the language so they can be the exceptional women, they'll no longer be the exception so it will be necessary to change the language again to push all women back in their place.

And I don't think it is the language itself that is silencing. It is that while we're all trying to master the this language so that we can each individually put in our claims as to why we're not those cis women, we end up with no room for conversations with other women about women's experiences.

But at the same time, quite apart from the sexist consequences for wider society, I feel quite sad that other people are declaring that I have a different kind of brain from people I love, like my son. Because actually that love involves ways we think the same and interests we have in common (after all we are family), and it's not our fault that other people want to label those things masculine and feminine and put them in boxes.

xposting too sorry all
"I thought a delusion was a belief that exists despite proof to the contrary. As it isn't possible (as far as I can see) to prove that another person's mind isn't in the wrong body (as it isn't possible to prove a negative)"

You are setting the bar for diagnosing delusion a bit too high. If someone claims to be an alien from planet Zog who happens to be born to a human mother and father but was transmuted into the uterus by x-rays, you cannot prove this is not true, but the balance of probability, even by simply asking 'how do you know this?' indicates that the person is deluded.

I mean schizophrenic people have all sorts of delusions that can't be disproved. How do we know that the devil isn't speaking to them? We can't prove it.

under, yes. A relative suffered from the delusion that her carers were poisoning her food. What stuck me was how frightening it was for her. She totally believed that people were trying to kill her and nobody agreed. Utterly terrifying for her, and heartbreaking for those on the outside because we couldn't find a way to ease her pain.

That's really interesting, almond. I can see that happening.

I'm really struck by this: It is that while we're all trying to master the this language so that we can each individually put in our claims as to why we're not those cis women, we end up with no room for conversations with other women about women's experiences.

I think that's exactly it. And I think those conversations are so important. I know a lot of my feminism comes from talking about shared experiences and hearing from other people.

I love your point about different brains and people you love, too. I agree.

for helping me figure this out.

"cafab privilege" - coercively assigned female at birth. Oh, FGS.

under what is the difference between belief and delusion? I thought it was that belief had no evidence, but delusion had opposing evidence. I'm not medically trained though, so I don't know the proper explanations, it's just what I've gathered from everyday life. Is it one of those spectrum things, where there is no clear distinction?

But I suppose Jessica it wasn't so terrifying for you, because you weren't drawn in to her delusions? When someone is certified it is tragic, but at least you know where you are, its different when the person functions as normal and other people around you don't recognise that the person is delusional.

I don't want to say under which circumstances (other than not specific feminist ones) but I have seen younger women literally whispering to each other in group situations about the impact of trans politics on them.

How do you mean, almond? Sorry, not trying to push you to say more than you're comfortable with, but I don't follow.