Please tell me this isn't a "thing"? "Feminist" man related.

[BertrandRussell]

My dad is just finishing her first year at university. She has had a great time except for two pretty disastrous relationships- both with men who called themselves feminists, and who talked a good talk. She trusted them much faster than she would have done if they had not sounded so politically and socially aware. And they both then treated her just as badly as an old fashioned "unreconstructed" man might. Please tell me this is not a new thing- men using being "feminist" as a way to get more notches on the bedpost?

No OP, it isn't 'telling it like it is' from AF. That's just her lurid imaginings, from whence that came is only open to speculation.
I am sure your dd's compromisings only went so far as the film choice.

And I am sure she had a chaperone- even at the cinema..........

All we know is that "two pretty disastrous relationships" took place. Maybe that's all BR knows too. Perhaps there's a mutual preference not to go into too many details--if gibbering noises are a possibility maybe that's a good thing.

A young person going off to university should receive a message to the effect of "No pregnancy, no diseases, nobody being exploited". It sounds as if the third item there has taken some serious damage, but hopefully the other two remain.

Indeed BR.

Though even Far From The Madding Crowd has, what I think young people label as, 'hot' moments. One cannot be too careful.

Do shut up, Pan. As you will be fully aware, my comment was a general one about men who try to tell women they are doing stuff wrong. Much like you just did.

And that was how I took it, AF. Trouble is, feminists have no sense of humour. They just take everything so seriously!

Indeed. Even the men who call themselves feminists have no sense of humour ! Imagine that.

Seriously though- what I have found depressing about this is that I have always been uncomfortable about men calling themselves feminists. I thought it was something I needed to work through as a dinosaur left over from the 70s. But it seems I was right. How sad is that?

I think it's possible for a man to want to be a feminist. I'm not sure it's possible for them to fundamentally care the way we do, or understand. Don't know if that means they can't be feminists. I guess if it's a given that they don't personally experience stuff, but they're attempting to challenge it then maybe that's enough. The word 'ally' makes me a bit queasy for some reason though. It's a bit clubbish or something.

I like ally. How about "fellow traveller" as communist sympathisers used to call themselves?

I prefer "sympathiser". My H accepts his male privelige and sympathises with women who are on the receiving end of it (generally). He doesn't call himself a feminist though.

Oh I like sympathiser! Has a charming air of the illicit, or a turncoat...

Oh, do that winding of the neck in thing AF. I was playfully defending the 'honour' of the dd and erasing the darker imaginings you appear to have placed in her mind. eg the FFTMC exaggerated ref. Nothing 'serious'. So get over your sense of humour bypass ya daft wombat.

I do like the "sympathiser" concept. Although, I don't discount a man calling himself feminist: indeed, it's a "stigma" that needs fixing. That said, rather a high proportion of men calling themselves feminists turn out to be assholes.

The following shouldn't matter, but it does, of course: people who haven't lived through an experience have less of a right to an opinion on it. I feel like those guys saying (of 'Nam) "yew weren't there, man!" but there is a value to being an "end user". I've experienced this lately (about a different thing, more general-work-related), and see it on the freds (esp Relationships) every day: "ooh, doesn't bother me, so what are you complaining about?", and no matter what the subject matter it is at very least irksome to have your experiences belittled.

It takes a truly remarkable creature to take themselves out of their own [more limited] life experiences and imagine but with humility how others may be struggling.

I had a big jazz-hands finish to this rant, but can't remember it.

" takes a truly remarkable creature to take themselves out of their own [more limited] life experiences and imagine but with humility how others may be struggling."

Gosh, does it? I must be truly remarkable then. I can imagine how lots of people are struggling.

When it comes to men being feminists, I think it takes a pretty remarkable man to fully understand that,for example, even if individuals don't feel as if they are, men as a class are more privileged than women as a class, or that all men benefit from the patriarchy or that true equality would benefit everyone, men and women. Those are hard things to understand. But imagining how others are struggling? Nah, that's easy peasy. Human being 101.

As discussed on another thread, lefty men and "feminist" men are often skidmarks of the first water.

I'm not really adding anything new but just wanted to nod at it being a thing.

What you notice as well, is that some men do the 'I deserve a cookie' thing. They think if they're nice for a certain period of time, they automatically deserve to be rewarded. Then, if everyone just treats them normally, they throw their toys out of the pram and take up the 'oh, life is so hard, I am so victimised ... if only you feminists weren't so nasty ...' line.

It is very wearying. But also very predictable: men are socialised to be rewarded much more quickly than women. They are socialised to expect recognition. Women, OTOH, are socialised to do the rewarding and recognizing.

I recently came across a bloke who told me sternly that he was a feminist and therefore took consent very seriously. He was surprised that I found the implication creepy.

TeiTetua wrote - "I've also heard "You can tell if a man likes women when you see how he treats his mother""

I'd advise women to not put their faith in this claim, because it does not take account of the "madonna/whore" categorisation that many men apply to women. Many men treat their mother, wife, partner, girlfriend, sister and daughter well, but treat other women very badly.

BertrandRussell wrote - "How about "fellow traveller" as communist sympathisers used to call themselves?"

For me, "fellow traveller" would suggest travelling the same or very similar path through patriarchy. I think that, although the lives of female feminists and men are all lifelong journeys within patriarchy, they are different journeys, which I don't think is reflected enough by the term "fellow traveller".

In my experience there is a connection, but I think it might be a case of correlation =/= causation. The men I know who most loudly and enthusiastically proclaim themselves to be feminists tend to be extremely nerdy, not-sure-how-to-talk-to-women types who I would guess are struggling with their own extreme social insecurities rather than entering a relationship with malicious intent - the same demographic that might under different circumstances be inclined to take an interest in 'pick up artists' (ugh). Obviously I don't know the OP's daughter's circumstances but I would guess that generally speaking it's whatever lies behind their need to constantly and loudly proclaim their 'feminism' that causes the problems, rather than a conscious attempt to trick women iyswim. But regardless of intent, someone that insecure needs to be working on themselves before they're capable of having a healthy relationship, imo.

I know several men who call themselves feminists, or don't use the word but strongly believe in the principles, but don't feel a need to shout about it unless it comes up naturally. I've never had a problem with any of them, so I don't think it's inevitable.

Top post Intrinsic

Goodness, I hope MN leave that pile of tripe there pejecod.

It will serve as a reminder of the utter stupidity of men who troll the boards.

Please tell me this is not a new thing- men using being "feminist" as a way to get more notches on the bedpost?

Oh it's always been a thing. I learned this early and would rather a good old-fashioned MCP than a self-styled feminist man. THey are inevitabltly controlling and superior. But I tend to be one of those old-fashioned feminists who really doesn't think a man can be a feminist. A fellow traveller, yes. But not a feminist.

And yes, unfortunately, it seems to be a way to bed feminists.

for your daughter.

All the self proclaimed feminist guys I know are sexist assholes who talk over me and try to tell me what I should think about feminism

Yep. That's been my experience too.