Motherhood, footbinding, and privilege

[AbortionFairyGodmother]

I've been hearing a lot of feminists on Facebook and elsewhere talk about the notion that mothers (because they are viewed as "complete" women and are seen as more socially acceptable than non-mothers) are a privileged class. I wrote this blog entry on the topic, but am curious to hear your thoughts. Have you seen these accusations of "mommy privilege" or "non-mother privilege," and where have they come from in your experience? Is this yet another case of men using groups of women to divide and conquer, or is there another explanation in your view?

Just about no one else is kept by men without having to work except mothers in the UK today. A very few men are but most men if they asked their wife tomorrow if they could give up work and mind the children would be laughed out of court. Some women without children can find men to keep them in return for sex and keeping pretty and all the rest.

In many societies you are divorced or shunned if you cannot bear children.

Any sanctification of motherhood is a bad thing - there is nothing special about having a womb and if a husband suggests that makes you uniquely placed to earn nothing and clean up after him you can tell him where to take a running jump and keep your full time job!

I think the idea that there is a mother privilege is indeed comparable to foot binding as the OP's blog argues. The stay at home/work out of home debate is also maybe relevant to your point that it would be better to fight oppression together than amongst ourselves. A stay at home mother has her labour devalued and is often economically disadvantaged - harder to get back into work, lower pension contributions. A mother working out of the home often has her contribution at work devalued by 'working mothers always take loads of time off' attitudes and have their contribution as a parent questioned - how women are constantly asked how they balance childcare and career when men aren't. In a society that thinks women are here to have children the decision not to is often challenged, and the inability to is made harder by society's expectations. These are just quick examples, but I don't think one group is privileged over another. There are mothers who are privileged by wealth, but it's not being a mother that is the privilege.

I feel I slightly derailred the thread by mentioning WOHM/SAHM upfront which wasn't that relevant to the post. Sorry all!

OP that's a great blog post, it nails it.

Some women who are mothers have more choices than men who are fathers. It will be harder for husbands of mumsnetters to give up outside work and stay home than it will be for their wives. However as long as men own 99% of the world's wealth I will not be weeping for them as the pressure on them to earn is an advantage even if it feels harder for them at the time. one reason I call enhanced maternity rights without paternity rights as a poisoned chalice which cons you into taking a supposedly "easier" better path but just seduces and bribes you into something which damages you longer term.

Did you read the blogpost, Lotus?

Do women who consider themselves feminists have plastic surgery, Botox, fillers etc?

Have you read the blogpost, pax?

Yonic, yes I have.
Third paragraph from the end cites women having plastic surgery at the risk of lethality.

I have asked do women who consider themselves feminists have plastic surgery.

This is the problem I have with the whole "privileged class" rhetoric - it often turns into "who has the least" wars :(
I understand the benefits of thinking about classes with privilege vs other classes of people but I honestly have never really seen it not turn into "X group has even less privilege than y" arguments :(

Will read your blog now.

Yes, I've read it and I agree that any group does much better by fighting simple basic issues rather than in-fighting.
Force men to hold the baby and clean the loo in your own marriage and you've won half the battle. Laugh if a man says of his wife at home - she's a better person than I am. I don't know how she does it. She has the hardest job. That is the language of oppression. The deification of dull domestic toil is one of the most damaging things done to women.

Do women have plastic surgery consider themselves feminists? I define feminism very simply wanting equality for men and women under the law and fairness at home - on that definition most of us including most British men are feminists. I don't think it is for us to question most women's use of the term. I wear the same clothes every day like a man and on the whole tend to spend the time men might spend on clothes, their looks etc. I find that very freeing and I set those principles down for myself in the 1970s and they have stood me in very good stead and presumably partly the reason I am happy and earn a lot. However for many women their best way to an easy life is marrying a richer man so I don't begrudge women who think spending time on fake breasts is going to pay off better than the years I spent in the law library. All we can do is work with what we have and yes I do dye my hair at home (£7 a time) and I do occasionally wear high heels which in a sense are not too different from foot binding and similarly not too different from a burka which also curbs your ability to cycle, run and jump.

Black rider, you don't need to apologise. I over reacted.

One of the problems I have with the 'privilege' concept is that I do not understand what the thinking is as to how they decide who is privileged. It just seems to devolve into competing lists of things different people don't experience.

So as I never have to worry about being held responsible if there is a freak earthquake in Paris and a building collapses, I have non French-architect privilege, and there should probably be a special name for non French-architects or I am denying my privilege.

I understand the thinking behind traditional liberal feminism (internationally agreed rights through law) and radical feminism (materialist base) as to explaining who is and is not disadvantaged, but I don't understand how the group who talk about privilege (social justice types) are making that decision.

There has always been the debate about whether mothers shoudl stay as low or no earners at home as if they work other women (although sometimes men) then have to do their dirty work at home - the socialist feminist view - that money and earnings are a huge moral insult and we should all thrive on fresh air whilst some state provides. Or whether women gaining qualifications and sharing the load at home with men are selling out or doing good. I have always argued they are doing good and that it is an insult to women of poor backgrounds to assume they cannot earn more and beat the men at their own game!

Lotus, I don't understand what your posts have got to do with either a. the concept of privilege or b. the relative situation of mothers and non mothers - i.e. the topic of the thread.

Socialism is based on time and currency exchange so it is nonsensical to say that socialist feminists consider money to be a huge moral insult.

LL's posts are nothing whatsoever to do with the thread, she's just banging her usual boring drum

What do you think about women being paid for making babies, doing housework etc?