A few questions about modern feminism (Q3 might trigger, I don't know if it will)

[Burke1]

Hi Mumsnet I'm a man in my early 20's and I was hoping to ask you a couple of questions about feminism and gender equality.

1. Do you feel that men and women are equal in terms of opportunity, and legal/social rights in society today?

1. What is your opinion on quotas such as "This company aims to increase female recruitment by 10% over the next 2 years", or all-women shortlists?

1. I've noticed on mumsnet that some women view all men as potential attackers because something bad has happened to them in the past. Why is this?

I personally wouldn't describe myself as feminist, because to me the "fem" part suggests it's a one-way thing that only covers female rights and not male rights. Personally I just believe in "people" having rights because that's who we are, the fact that some of us have a dick and some of us have a vagina shouldn't factor into what rights we get. I know some people will consider that what I've just described is feminism, and while it's fine for you to have that opinion, my equally valid opinion is that it's not feminism. I'm not interested in an argument over who thinks what is defined as what, but I would quite like to see some answers to my questions because I am interested in this topic. Thank you to anyone who decides to talk

This is probably the place to quote the old story illustrating equality vs opportunity.

Two applicants for a job are invited to an interview (you see it was a very old story!). The interview is held on an upper floor and there are no lifts, only stairs. Unfortunately one of the candidates is in a wheelchair. So whilst both of them have the right to attend the interview, only one has the opportunity to do so. Mere equality is satisfied by making the offer, but equity can only be achieved by improving accessibility, eg by moving the interview to the ground floor or to a building with lifts. It's not just fairer on the candidate, but also indirectly better for the employer, who might otherwise be missing out on the most suitable person for the job. But mostly it's seen as too much trouble to make the change unless and until the law compels it, which is why equality law is seen as necessary.

I don't have to belabour the parallel with women MPs, do I?

Hi OP. I don't want to be hostile to you - you're entitled to ask questions. I welcome your interest in feminism, even if you make the classic and tiresome mistake of assuming it means female superiority, which it doesn't.

As the previous poster explained, you seemed to be conflating the concept of rights with that of opportunity. Nobody here would argue that a person's genitals should determine what rights they have - quite the contrary. But the culture we live in determines that despite having broadly equal rights in legal terms, women are still fighting a constant battle against pervasive prejudice. Too big a topic to go into here, which is why you're being told to go and read up on it. I would strongly suggest you read 'Unspeakable Things' by Laurie Penny, which as well as being an excellent account of modern feminism also discusses masculinity and how men suffer under this debilitating construct which is of no use to any of us.

noddingoff

I might be wrong on the penis bit, definitely another object, it was, I think, 'indecent assault'.

Before the law changed a woman having her vagina penetrated against her will wasn't raped unless it was a penis.

Of course if it was a penis and she happened to be married to the owner of the penis that would not be rape or even a crime.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1956/69/pdfs/ukpga_19560069_en.pdf

Page 26 'indecent assault on a woman 2 years', 'indecent assault on a man 10 years'

Have a read of the Act - a girl under sixteen can be 'indecently assaulted' by a man id=f he has 'reasonable belief' that she is his wife!

I think your post is a the equivalent of me going on to the dog-owners forum and saying something along the lines of:

"I have recently become the owner of a poodle but have never had a dog before. Please could all you dog-owners tell me everything I need to know. Also, just to be clear, I only need to know about poodles so please could all the owners of Aand spaniels keep all their expert advice and opinion to themselves and not bother me with it as I have no interest in Alsatians or spaniels and cannot see how any of your advice could possibly be relevant. I hope that doesn't cause offence."

And then when all the dog-owners, instead of taking offence, actually take the time to answer me along the lines of, "Goodness, you've got a lot to learn and we can't possibly tell you all you need to know about looking after dogs on one internet thread, perhaps you'd better read the whole forum or get a book from the library" and also, "by the way all the Alsatian and spaniel owners will have very relevant cross-over advice too, you know," instead of replying, "Oh, I see, thanks for the insight," I continue to make my original request over and over again.

I wonder how long it would be before the dog-owners gave up on me?

Thanks for the replies this is really insightful. Hooty, maybe some people dont consider themselves feminist because they also want to focus on getting men equal rights too rather than just focusing on one specific sex. Men face our fair share of discrimination and inequality in society and therefore its not productive for anyone to pretend its a one-sex isssue and commit to "equal rights for this sex" when we should be focusing on equl rights for all.

Thanks for all the replies received so far its been quite interesting to read and ive spent a bit of time reading the links provided. Havent had time to go through as much of the material as id like but i intend doing so in nxt couple of days.

Do you really believe men and women are equally disadvantaged in our society Burke?

It would be insanely difficult if not completely impossible to quantify a "percentage" of how much each sex faces so I'd rather not even attempt it as i dont even know how youd begin. What i think i can say sfor sure is that any inequality (regardless of whether its against men or women) is wrong and should be fixed.

For men to have equal rights it would mean them losing some of their privilege which is the problem, the majority of men don't want that.

If men and women are equally disadvantaged then there isn't a problem is there?
But you are clearly deluded.

1. Yes, I began my career in what was a male dominated sector and have never experienced any discrimination. I think being straightforward and honest about your intentions and needs when you have young children pays dividends.
2. Everyone should be recruited on their merits. Flexible working etc. should apply to men as well as women.
3. I'm sick of the "all men are abusers" attitudes on here. I don't think it is so common in the "outside world"

I think feminism needs re-inventing for the world as it is now.

This has been really interesting. Perhaps the OP has been a bit lazy but it's sometimes better to hear "real" people's opinions.

For what it's worth, I'm male, I don't consider myself a feminist but I do believe in equal rights. It shouldn't even be question in today's society ( obviously it is still).

Domestic abuse is a big area where men lack equal rights in practice, even if not in law. While we on here all see donestic violence againdt men and women as wrong, society as a whole doesnt treat violence against men with the s We ame seriousness. There have been cases of passers by laughing at a man being abused and its frequently assumed that he must habe deserbed it or she is "putting him in his place" which is a phrase i partiularly loath. Spelling is bad right now as on phone but hope its been clear enogh to inderstand.

Yes, I agree with your views about domestic abuse against men, as a former Criminal Defence solicitor I saw quite a lot of that, the police usually found it amusing and were not generally inclined to take action.

1. Me too (male dominated), not me too no discrimination - I didn't go on trips because the boss didn't want to take a woman, I was frequently expected to take notes in meetings despite being relatively senior, I can't count the number of times a male subordinate was spoken to rather than me during customer meetings, interviews etc. I do agree that being straightforward about expectations is important. I'm senior enough to make that stick though - many women aren't.

1. Flexible working does apply to men, as does parental. For some reason they don't take it and leave it to the women still. Interesting that they got these rights without a fight, and generally can't be bothered, unlike the women who fought tooth and nail to get them.

1. It's not 'all men are abusers' it's 'men as a class abuse women as a class' an important difference.

I think people need to read what's being written rather than announce what they've decided feminism is and denounce it because of that.

With respect, it's not for men to decide where the issues of women's rights exist. Just as it's not for white people to decide the agenda for the civil rights movement. The non-oppressed group should listen and support but never dictate. Otherwise your not part of the solution, you're the problem.

It is crap if police forces aren't taking reports of domestic abuse seriously. I think everyone would agree with that whatever the sexes of the victims and the perpetrators.

Burke, do you know of any petitions or campaigns about that subject?

" I'm sick of the "all men are abusers" attitudes on here. I don't think it is so common in the "outside world"

That attitude doesn't exist, it's not generally feminists who think all men are abusers, it's usually anti-feminists who believe that and think that women should take responsibility for avoiding male abuse. Feminists generally believe that men are morally developed human beings just like women, who are perfectly capable of taking responsibility for their own actions and are therefore not all abusers as they have a choice whether to abuse or not to abuse.

HTH.

Viz men being victims of DV not being taken seriously, that is because of patriarchal attitudes which say that real men are strong, powerful, masterful etc. and therefore not capable of being the victims of DV by women. The way to solve that problem, is to accept that men should be allowed to be rounded human beings in touch with the whole of their humanity. Patriarchy won't allow that as it defines masculinity as being non-emotional (except when the emotion is anger, then it's OK.)

Well, nothing bad has happened to me in the past and I still see men (and to a carefully calculated statistically lesser extent, women) as potential attackers, what's wrong with that?

I do a martial arts/self-defence class where we're taught to anticipate threats and head them off where possible. So if I'm walking home from the pub at midnight, and a figure of non-defined gender is walking towards me, I'll have defence strategies prepared. Is that a bad thing?

GuybrushThreepwoodMP so as men are discriminated against in favour of woman in certain areas in society do you feel that, as a woman, it is your duty to listen and support but not dictate?

YonicScrewdriver I've seen plenty of campaigns about domestic violence but they almost always portray it as though it's a woman being the victim (which I think is sexist because men get abused to). For example most of the posters I see tend to say that you shouldn't hit "her" or a helpline for if you are abusing "your wife". I also saw a test being conducted by two Youtubers (man and woman) who pretended very convincingly to abuse each other in public. They would take turns arguing, gradually building up to shouting/screaming and eventually one pulling the others hair and shoving them. Every time the man was in the role of abuser multiple people passing by came to the aid of the woman and told the man he was wrong/mental etc. When the woman was in the role of abuser people actually laughed when they saw it and didn't get involved. They tried this multiple times and got consistent differing results based on which sex was the abuser. I think this highlights the inequality men still face in society, even in the modern age men are being discriminated against, just as women are being discriminated against.

I don't see the solution to this as being "mens rights" or "womens rights", because that sounds like you're getting your rights BECAUSE you are a man or because you are a woman. I would rather focus on general "human rights". Both sexes face gender discrimination in certain areas, but it shouldn't happen because we shouldn't be treated differently based on whether we have a dick or a vagina. Sorry about not being able to reply much lately, just got round to it (at 5 in the morning of all times)

There are a lot of YouTube experiments Burke. See the one of the woman walking through the neighbourhoods of New York and the catcalls she gets. The one of mothers of adult sons getting dressed up anonymously and walking past them and being street harassed. Etc.

Bystanders rarely get involved, sadly. The bystander effect as a phenomenon typically cites

The Kitty Genovese case when 37 observers didn't call the police when she was stabbed repeatedly:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

If you would like to support male sufferers of DV, you may wish to look into Mankind.
www.mankind.org.uk

Here is a police campaign aimed at male victims
:

m.cambridge-news.co.uk/Police-launch-Valentines-Day-campaign-targeting-male-victims-domestic-abuse-Cambridge-area/story-22369014-detail/story.html

The majority of victims are women and the majority of perpetrators are men. Therefore it's not too surprising that the majority of posters reflect that, any more than it's too surprising that there are more posters about drink driving in a nightclub than in a shopping centre.