Bystanders to assaults

[ThatBloodyWoman]

I was listening to radio the other day (Jeremy Vine happened to be on) and the discussion was about bystanders to (sexual) assaults.
I was shocked to hear a story so similar to my own,,and I wondered how frequently it happens that a woman is assaulted in public,yet there is a reluctance to intervene,and just how that could be.
Why wouldn't someone do something?

I suppose it depends on a lot of factors. Severity of the assault, what the victim is like, how tough the assailant looks, bystander effect etc.

What sort of assaults were they talking about?

I'm sorry no-one intervened when you were assaulted.

The assaults were sexual,and it seems there was no doubt that it was not consentual (for example,one woman was having her head banged on the pavement).
It seemed to be deliberate choice not to get involved in the cases they talked about.
One excuse was brought up that it could be hard to know if it was a playful thing,and it might be embarrassing to get involved.Another was that it might be a couple having a row (so its none of anyone else's business,I suppose )

'Why wouldn't someone do something?'

I think the main driver from my point of view (I'm a man) would be the risk of getting in a kerfuffle and ending up getting done for affray, assault or somesuch (not of my instigation, but if someone's willing to sexually assault a woman, they are willing to physically assault a man). Then there's the possible knock-on effects of losing my job etc. I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in the police to go after the 'right' guy. Also, having intervened verbally on a couple of instances, I wouldn't expect much support from bystanders - people tend to look the other way.

'Another was that it might be a couple having a row (so its none of anyone else's business,I suppose hmm )'

I've attempted to intervene in this kind of situation before and have been told to roundly fuck off by both involved parties, so I can understand how people arrive at that conclusion.

There's going to be a range of stuff from the "I can't see anything wrong with that" which is really depressing and hopefully on the decrease all the time and bystander effect / scared of being turned on like with the woman having her head banged I'd think people would be scared for the same reasons as if they saw someone being punched or stabbed I'd hope they'd call the police though on 999 in that scenario.

The nasty bit is the bit where a sexual assault is seen as not really such a problem - in that the victim and the assailant both know what's going on and onlookers think it's "a domestic" or not really bad enough to warrant intervention. I don't know how much of that goes on.

Most perpetrators pick situations where there aren't witnesses / an action that society deems "not too bad" eg sticking a hand up a woman's skirt in a club, or depends on the victim not feeling like they can say anything (although if they feel they can then great) like being groped on a crowded tube.

i didn't hear it so I don't really know what sort of things people weren't doing anything about.

ThatBloodyWoman...

DH listened to this as well and was incensed at the blasé attitude displayed toward people being attacked. The one that shocked him most was the one where someone started filming the attack.

We have both stepped in when someone was being attacked. It's the only human and honourable thing to do. When the attacker had a weapon, I loudly said that I was calling the police.

You either get involved or you're colluding with the look the other way society.

I can get to grips with assualts that are unseen not being challenged,obviously.
And I can understand why at times a 999 call might be the only option a person may feel that they can take,for reasons of their own personal safety.
I can't understand why car after car,or person after person wouldn't help.

TBH and I am v feministy person, I think that intervention across the board is low for all sorts of crimes.

I think people don't intervene in all sorts of stuff not just sex crimes, sadly.

Like I say I didn't hear the piece though.

My brother intervened when a man was being violent towards his girlfriend and the man knocked his front teeth out. he said he would do the same thing again, though I have said calling the police and encouraging others nearby to help him if possible might make him less likely to be on the receiving end of violence too

I'm so sorry that happened to you TBW, and I agree the inertia is appalling - it supports abusers in their abuse

Your poor brother Hap.

I have never understood how a girl was raped on a packed train in the daytime. Parents were telling their DCs not to look.
I don't understand how the collective power of the bystanders couldn't have overcome the rapist.

I hope that I would never be the bystander who chooses to ignore and not intervene.

When was that?

I am also sorry that you were assaulted, OP, and that no-one intervened.

The "bystander effect" is amply studied: broadly, the more people witness an incident, the less likely it is that anyone will intervene. Probably because responsibility is diluted between so many people, that none feel individually responsible anymore.

In assertiveness and self-defense courses, they often teach you how to snap bystanders back to a sense of personal responsibility, by singling them out and issuing a specific task: "You there with the red jumper, dial 999. And you, tall man with the sports bag, come help me calm this gentleman down."

Useful to remember, next time any of us find ourselves as bystanders, among an apathetic crowd that's at a loss how to respond to something and looking the other way.

Goats - even that's hard though. Several years ago, I was travelling on on a packed train on a Sunday afternoon. I'd just recovered from a nasty bout of flu and wasn't feeling quite right, so I sat down in a window seat and a four seater, leaned my head against the window and dozed off. Next thing I knew, there were three men sitting round me, groping me. They grabbed at me and blocked me in with their legs when I tried to get away. I'd heard of the bystander effect, so I piped up, "Could someone pleasehelp me." But nobody moved, no one would even catch my eye. They laughed at me and as the train pulled into the station, one of them stood up to stop me from leaving. So I punched him in the face (I know. First time I ever straight out punched a guy. Didn't feel good), pushed my way out and ran.
So perhaps they were really scary men and no one felt they could stand up to them. But it obviously wasn't a domestic and I'd made it clear that I needed help and no one intervened, no one said "C'mon, let her go", no one called the police, and nobody would even catch my eye. The only help I got was a couple of people who made way for me so that I could escape.
You get used to being harassed and groped and catcalled. But that part was the hardest to get over. It felt like everyone thought it served me right, that I'd deserved it for some reason.

Bloody hell that's utterly horrifying uglyswan.

It was utterly surreal! I felt like it was all happening inside a glass tank or something, where I could see everyone but no one could see or hear me. Like an especially horrible dream. Nowadays I always look around for the nearest woman or girl travelling on her own and sit down next to her if possible. That way I know: if they turn nasty, at least there's two of us!

Yes I used to sit in a carriage with a female in it when I used to travel around at night. They used to have a guard on our tube which was good but they did away with them years ago.

When people say it's unfair or sexist of women to do stuff like this (choose a carriage with another woman) and I know they haven't on this thread but it does come up, they are entirely overlooking the fact that women who do this, do so because of experiences they have had, often on more than one occasion.

I'm so sorry that happened to you it's awful, I don't know what to say. thing is the people on the train clearly can't all have been total bastards, so WTF was going through their heads???

I don't know. I suppose the women might have been thinking "If they've got her, perhaps they'll leave me alone?" Which is understandable, but probably the most depressing thing I've typed all day. The men? Didn't want to get into a fight, I suppose. Or thought I was overreacting? "Just a bit of fun."

But the part that gets me is that nobody would even look me in the eye. I assume that would have made them feel obliged to acknowledge I was in trouble and that they were âlready^ involved, whether they wanted to or not. But it just felt like they were condoning it in some way. That I was getting what was coming to me and should be ashamed of myself for causing a scene.

Well obviously that isn't the case, that anyone thought you deserved it or anything.

Sounds like a massive case of bystander effect. Were the men really big and scary, there were a few of them, I guess people just didn't want to put themselves in the "firing line" and were hoping that it would all just go away / someone else would deal with it.

Bloody hell. I'm so sorry. Stuff like that makes you lose your faith in humanity totally doesn't it.

Aw thanks, Whirlpool. It could have been a lot worse. I got away after all.

But yes, it was more of a collective "not my problem" rather than actual approval. And there were three of them and they were quite big and noisy, so I didn't really expect anyone to leap to my rescue. But a brief acknowledgement of the situation would have been nice. I'd have given a lot for a shared look of shock and horror at that moment.

The good thing is, you become very sensitized to situations that might go wrong. As you said, sharing a carriage with a woman at night. Catching someone's eye, even a quick nod or smile that means "We've got each other's backs, right? In case this lot turn on us." - It all makes you a lot less nervous. Hopefully other people too.

YY the eye contact with other women thing. When a man/men gets on who seems a bit "off" for whatever reason.

This is all stuff we take for granted isn't it that actually I didn't realise until recently. That there is all this stuff shared between females that I took for granted so much I didn't even notice it.

Good for you for punching that man, uglyswan. You should totally feel entitled to defend yourself with all you've got when you feel in danger like that. It sounds terrifying, and you held your own, and got out of a tricky situation on your own wits and strength.

The point I was making upthread is that people really need to be individually singled out in order to snap out of bystander apathy. If you don't know their name, they can be singled out by the colour of their top, or an object they are holding. And then they need to be given a specific task, so that they can't use their cluelessness, too, as a justification for not doing anything: call 999, walk me to the next exit, hold this person's arms,...

This puts the onus on the victim, or on a more clued up bystander, to single people out and issue instructions. It's not fair, but human psychology being what it is, it's still a good tip to know.

In your case, although you called out for help, sadly, the people in the carriage probably were still able to feel unconcerned when you called out for "somebody", because everybody in the carriage is a somebody, and so nobody is personally responsible, and "help" was something they could still kid themselves was not within their ability. You were right to ask the people in the carriage, collectively, for help. They were totally wrong, each of them, not to intervene. This is on them, not on you.

I'm afraid I've been a bystander to a physical assault. Not sexual though as far as ikniw.

My excuse was I had 6 week dd1 strapped to my front in a sling, and I didn't see any other way to keep her safe than ignore and scuttle past.

I am still deeply ashamed though

I intervened in an (non sexual) assault in broad daylight once and received (verbal) abuse for my troubles from other 'bystanders'.

Truly awful. I was trapped in a scary situation and until the police came I felt as under attack as the victim Someone did call the police but I think only after I was screaming at the top of my lungs for someone to do something. One bloke told me to get away as it was none of my business. He actually walked over the road to say that!

I did get a nice certificate from the police and flowers (via the police) from the victims mum.

I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. It shocks me to my very core at how few people do help.