Bystanders to assaults

[ThatBloodyWoman]

I was listening to radio the other day (Jeremy Vine happened to be on) and the discussion was about bystanders to (sexual) assaults.
I was shocked to hear a story so similar to my own,,and I wondered how frequently it happens that a woman is assaulted in public,yet there is a reluctance to intervene,and just how that could be.
Why wouldn't someone do something?

You're right, Goats, but I was angry and confused and panicking slightly and it's hard to get a task force going when you're trying to pry some fucker's hand off your thigh. So when my cry for help didn't work - and I was really counting on it to work, that's why I was so shocked when absolutely nothing happened - I just went into fight mode and was sorry immediately after (not sorry now, don't you worry ). So your advice is good, but I don't know how practicable it is under stress. I'm with Whirlpool here, the safest strategy is to take preventative measures, team up with others before anything happens.
BringBack - oh man, I really wouldn't want a mother putting herself and her baby at risk. Not for anything. Was there no one else around?
The Girl - someone actually took the time and energy to try and stop you from intervening? I'm actually lost for words and that's a new and deeply unpleasant experience for me. I'm really glad you didn't listen, though!

I don't remember anyone else around. I lurked for a bit then the man started gesturing at me so I scuttled off. Wish I'd thought if ringing 999 but didn't stupidly ( had huge post natal anxiety and sleep deprivation - dd only slept in 45 minute chunks at that stage due to un diagnosed CMPI)

I was on a wooded road,and a man waited in the bushes for me as I walked past.
He ran out and grabbed me,put his hand over my mouth and tried to force me into the woods
Two or three cars came past -they slowed then changed their course so they could drive round us.
I managed to fight back enough to get away -then I still had to continue walking along the road to get to safety.

I don't know why someone in one of those cars didn't do something -even if it was just to stay there and shine their headlights.

" if someone's willing to sexually assault a woman, they are willing to physically assault a man"

Wouldn't count on it. Lots of men are only ever violent towards women, they're nice as pie to other men. And when women tell men that these men are violent, lots of men don't believe them, because they've always been nice to them.

To be fair to people who film assaults, maybe it's their way of trying to provide evidence to the police?

OP and swan: another thing your experiences show is that women are not powerless in the face of male violence, as society likes to paint us. You both fought back, and luckily in your cases that was enough to get you out of those situations.

I'd like every woman to walk around knowing that she can, in fact, hold her own. Instead I think most of us walk around feeling like helpless victims-in-waiting, because we've been told that that's what we are (through the damsel in distress trope, and lifelong socialisation to be agreeable and amenable...).

I'd back up what Goats said. I go to a boxing gym where plenty of women train with the men. These are not big, hulking 'roided specimens - they are normal height and weight. But I can tell you they hit hard! They'd put most blokes on their arse with a punch. Women are physically capable of standing their ground. Like men, they shouldn't have to resort to violence, but sometimes there is little option.

I am an intervener. Although last time I intervened in a 'domestic' in public it resulted in my (male) friend being walloped/getting his shirt ripped, and both the victim and the perpetrator of the assault I witnessed being arrested for assaulting police officers. I only hope that the victim saw by my reaction to how her boyfriend was treating her how unacceptable it was and maybe one day stops defending him to the point of getting arrested herself.

I was also once the victim of a common assault, in a petrol station. 11 members of the public & staff stood and watched- they even stood back and let him bloody pay so he could leave - and I had to call the police myself. He was arrested charged and convicted.

I see what you're saying, Yops, and I realise it can help some people, but it's dangerous advice. I can assure you (used to do a lot of weight training and climbing as a younger woman) that even being unusually strong for a woman, you're still at a disadvantage relative to most men. Furthermore there's the question of psychological reaction - a lot of normal people freeze in response to danger. All that training isn't going to help you if you can't move. And there's the possibility that your attacker is carrying a weapon.

I always remember the question posed by the Tae Kwondo coach where I used to train (he was trying to get across the limitations of marial arts for self defence). He asked "Suppose I'm walking along the road with my wife, and some bloke comes up and completely out of the blue swings a punch at me. What do you think would happen?" Lots of the men in the audience (yes, it was the men who tried to answer, not the women - draw from this what you will) pitched in with "such and such a block", "so and so counterpunch", etc. The coach just looked at us and said, "No, I'd end up with my nose broken, same as you. Because I wouldn't be expecting it." That's the limitation with self-defence training - unless you live your life at defcon 5, someone's always going to be able to swing a random punch.

I wasn't telling people to go out and train like a demon for a street fight. What I was trying to articulate is, as the poster who punched someone on the train said, you have that option within you. Also, the very fact that a woman punches back, and hard, might be enough to put an assailant on the back foot. It might also shake bystanders out of their lethargy, given the shock of it happening. I was agreeing with Goats.

It's iron ice that women feel safer in busy places.

Ironic

my now dh,at the time boyfriend, when he was 18 ,intervened in a bloke getting nasty with his lass, she defended her dp started swearing at DH ,and when DH was walking home the bloke (roughly lates 20s) jumped him with 3 other mates of a similar age,....obviously big brave rock hard men .....

ThatBloodyWoman I'm so sorry...thats shocking, i bet the anger towards the bystanders is sometimes more intense then towards the assailant, ...sometimes

I think in my case its just not understanding,rather than anger,at the people who failed to help.
The stakes were so high -surely someone could have thought of something to help.
I never for one minute have thought someone would get out and take him on.
But I became not worth anything in that moment in time to those people who drove on by.

yea i can imagine how that eternal question must stay with you,my dh is quite the opposite which is why he ended up looking like he'd done ten rounds, ...probably why people dont get involved ...self preseveration,but my DH is a big bloke tbf.

The train rape was on a Southport - Liverpool train packed with day trippers.
I can't find it online probably because it happened about 20 years ago.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11990646

The gay bloke who got kicked to death by two young women in Trafalgar Square - see link.

People walked on by.

The experiences on this thread are terrifying.

I was assaulted in broad daylight by a total stranger a few years ago when out with my toddler. 2 workmen stood by as I was throttled, slammed against a van, thrown onto floor and head stamped on. Amidst it all I was scared for my daughter being unattended and shouted 'that's my daughter' in hope a bystander would look after her. Workmen later said that as I had mentioned daughter they thought it was a domestic and better not to get involved. Wish they had gone to prison as well as the violent druggy who attacked me.

ThatBloodyWoman and Lowry - jesus. Yes. It's the implication that your life is not worth stopping the car and shouting "I'm calling the police" for, that a "domestic" means it's nobody's business and that bystanders can use that to justify their cowardice that makes the whole experience even worse.
And Goats - "You both fought back, and luckily in your cases that was enough to get you out of those situations." The key word is "luckily". I wasn't especially strong or quick-witted, I was just very very lucky. Fighting back can get you out of a dangerous situation. It can also get you very badly injured or killed. I'm a lot better a throwing a punch these days, and I could probably hit one man hard enough to put him out of commission long enough to get away. But I can't take on three men. So the whole "strong woman fighting her own battles" thing isn't very helpful and it's a bit of a cop-out imo.

I am absolutely appalled that so many people would not stop to help at all, not even to the extent of just stopping and calling the coppers. I am totally shocked wih uglyswan's horrible story. What the hell is wrong with people in this country now?? I agree it isn't just sexual assault, people are so terrified of getting involved in any bad situation. Pathetic.

A man in Warrington was killed by a gang of teenagers after he went out to complain about them damaging his car. It has always horrified me that there was no one in the neighbourbood capable of helping at all.

I would not intervene in verbal arguments, but I would always watch and intervene if necessary in physical situations. I did exactly that with an argument outside my front door once, when a drunk bloke tried to pick a fight(''you're looking at me funny' - pathetic) with a family bloke. He had the situation under control and was able to talk out of it: I didn't want to ruin the dialogue but I was watching in case I had to run out and help get the kids to safety. I and my husband did intervene ina fight on a railway station once and we were both shocked by the staff's reaction. They only came running when we knocked something over and promptly ran away again when they saw it was a fight, didn't call the police or anything. They were at work and utterly failed to take any action. I have every sympathy with the need to protect oneself and one's own kids, but you can still run round the corner and call the police can't you? I just can't imagine just standing there and watching it happen.

I'm not a big hulking bloke and yes it can be dangerous but at the very very least we all have bloody phones and the 999 number for goodness sake!

I've been groped on three different occasions on a bus. I've always reacted back aggressively, no one has ever stuck up for me. On one occasion someone told me off for swearing in front of their DC. It triggered anxiety for me for a few years - it made it so much worse that no one helped, they all made me feel like I'd kicked up a fuss over fuck all.

I have never witnessed a sexual assault.

I have intervened in a few other (male on male) assaults. My tactic is to stand well back and tell them that I am calling the police, while calling 999.

I like to think that I would step in should a woman be in trouble - I hope I would.

I intervened twice in two separate incidents of male on female violence. Once in a bar where I was working, nobody else did anything but obviously I did have the backup of the staff I worked with. The bloke backed down. The other I was by myself and it was happening outside my bedroom window. A bloke was hitting a naked woman with her dress outside their car on a patch of grass. I went out and told him to stop. He was enormous. And he threatened me with violence. I told him I'd call the police and that seemed to do the trick. They got back in the car and drove off.

On both occasions the woman was trying to get me not to intervene. I think they thought the bloke would escalate because of my intervention (and very possibly would - a real danger). Also I think they were embarrassed (not the right word) because it made it very real that what was happening to them was not normal and not acceptable. It made them confront their reality in some small way.

I would intervene again but in a different way probably more like what Heckler describes (I was quite young on both those occasions). I'd hope people would intervene if I was in that situation too even if I didn't react in the way they expected.

And to those who have suffered assaults.

Some of the cases on this thread are shocking and horrifying. I am always, however, disappointed with scenarios that entail, "My male friend (DH or whatever) tried to intervene but the woman victim didn't want him to and he was abused himself in the end" because it implies that somehow the woman victim is to blame for the abuse she receives and it ignores the complex reasons as to why that is happening to that victim, and possibly has been happening to that victim for a long build-up of time.

Like many things, before the point of full-blown violence in the street is reached, many smaller "assaults" happen on a daily basis to women and the vast majority of bystanders would not intervene. Things like cat-calling/abuse etc hurled at women every day in the street are seen as acceptable and not something bystanders should do anything about. I am disturbed by how many very young girls (often in school uniform) are verbally harassed by older, drunk men on public transport and no one does anything - this is seen as just something young women have to put up with. But to the young women involved, it is beyond uncomfortable and often terrifying. I always intervene in such situations - and don't care what abuse I get for it. I am the grown up in the situation and prepared to act like one.