If you could build the perfect feminist bloke from existing fictional characters ...

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Indulge me here. Where would you start with the perfect feminist (fictional) bloke?

I quite like Joss Whedon's men, but they all tend to have a worrying streak of misogyny/evil in them.

And if someone suggests Gilbert Blythe, I may have to become aggressive and silencing.

Oh yes Jamie in Outlander but later Jamie obviously. Compared to Frank who was never going to see Claire as an equal, Jamie has massive character growth. Claire becomes more than his equal actually and Jamie is painted as progressive.

How about Jack Parlabane (happy to be out-earned by Sarah who is a great character, but prone to ending up on the wrong end of bad guys), or even Reacher - only ever gets together with strong talented women and is honest before shagging them that he won't stick around. Capable of ironing and cleaning. Drawbacks - won't stick around.

What about West Wing characters - Bartlet, Sam, Josh?

I don't think Firefly characters can really be mapped onto Buffy ones, but there's certainly feminist ingredients in both sets of characters. The men don't have to always be comfortable with female power, just trying not to be dicks about it.

I see Peter Whimsey's been grabbed already! It's that letter in Gaudy Night that I love - something along the lines of "You will not shy away from danger and unpleasantness, and god forbid that you should..."

Re. Mal in Firefly - yes, arsehole (albeit that most seductive kind, the troubled, possibly redeemable arsehole). And it's that bad boy=sexy, nice-guy = dull trope that dominates so much of romantic fiction. As someone who writes a bit in a very amateur sort of way, it's very challenging (given the cultural baggage we all come pre-loaded with) to write a sexy, but feminist compliant man. However much we engage in consciousness-raising, we do so against a background of a culture which tells us that dominance is sexy. I have to admit (I write in a medieval fantasy world, mostly) I do it by having the blokes kick ass when it comes to dealing with the bad guys, but reasonable and decent in their interactions with the female characters.

That's a brilliant insight Tribpot, that Angel isn't redeemed by love but in fact turns on full on evil. Though I'm never quite sure whether I see that plot move as feminist compliant ("see, the idea that love redeems is a pile of shite") or simply another version of the tired old "sex is dangerous for a virgin" trope - as in, he and Buffy are allowed to be completely in love so long as they do a variant on the "silver ring thing" and don't actually shag.

Hmm, parlabane. Good self awareness around the surgeon, I'll grant.

Love Parlabane. Good choice. He has female friends too, which is generally a good sign.

Neville Longbottom. Loyal, a good friend, fancies Ginny (who is obviously cleverer than him), takes a level in badass in a supportive group way not an I-am-hero-man-please-worship-me way.

NotCitrus - yes, you're right about Reacher, I think (not that he's ever done it for me romantically). And strangely, I think the same can be said for (book) Richard Sharpe - he always falls in love (even if transiently) with his love interest in each book, usually when they've shown some sort of independence or bravery (even unexpectedly so - like the shy governess who somehow manages to escape from the French). Of course he's totally unbelievable in that respect. He's clearly meant to be (on some level) a psychopath (he even says of himself in one of the books "Men like me are useful during war, but a country doesn't know what to do with us during peacetime", or something to that effect), and psychopaths just aren't selective psychopaths in real life - nice and decent to the good guys, merciless to the bad guys. So to that extent I never quite bought the "gut the Frenchie one moment, unerringly chivalrous to the woman the next" bit - but when I suspend disbelief, I rather enjoy them.

Eleven? (Matt Smith)

It seems wrong to pick out just one iteration of the Doctor but he had a visibly equal relationship with River Song - she was in no way subsidiary. And there was no damsel in distress gallantry in "The Girl Who Waited."

Mal is just awful, sorry. He doesn't even manage bad-boy-sexy, he's just annoying.

Giles is a pretty good guy, I'd say.

Personally, I'll put in a bid for Cassandra Clare's Jem. Clever, charming, simultaneously 140 years old whilst looking 19, and I can't think of any dodgy anti-feminist habits.

Parlabane's fine from the feminist POV, but attracts too much trouble to be the perfect partner, I'd say

Lurcio - I don't see it as being about sex, but happiness. Admittedly Buffy doesn't have a marvellous time when her boyf goes apeshit but better than the idea of her being turned to the dark side by sex.

Which brings me to .. Han Solo. There may be aspects of the dialog that could stand updating but it's not like he tries to put Leia down as a woman (who could, she is the Boss). I'm less thrilled at the idea that Leia can't command the fleet herself but has Admiral funny-face do it for her (I would look it up in Wookeepedia but can't be arsed!) but that's not on Han.

West Wing characters - it's hard not to view them through the lens of some of Sorkin's dreadful writing (and I think the West Wing is the best written show on TV ever). Josh certainly not, Bartlet I think yes - this quote always makes me laugh:
ABBEY: It was a perfectly lovely homily on Ephesians 5:21. "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."
BARTLET: Yeah. She's skipping over the part that says, "Wives, be subject to your husbands as to the Lord, for a husband is the head of a wife as Christ is the head of the church."
ABBEY: I do skip over that part.
BARTLET: Why?
ABBEY: Because it's stupid!

Matt Smith's doctor is pretty good, and there was very little "all men together" wankery between him and Rory. In fact, there were quite a few references to how Amy was a more dominant character without her being all fierce and shouty.

Parts of the good guy in Bridget Jones (Colin Firth's character). He actually seems to have quite a lot of respect and admiration for her (fck knows why) and in spite of how important his job is can make time for her. Also doesn't hold a grudge against her. Not perfect though, and don't go near the second book as he seems to have a complete character transplant.

And no to the West Wing. Whenever they strayed near feminism they got it horribly wrong. At one point Josh refers to women as a minority. Erm, 52% of the population is the smaller half? Yuck.

Oh ... yes, WW was terrible with feminism (which isn't surprising because Sorkin is a bit of a misogynistic pig). But he still managed very appealing characters in some ways.

I can't take Bartlet on the Bible seriously, though. I mean, he's not wrong, but he's also twisting things to suit his point, as usual. Btw, before I got married, the priest came and tried to teach me that passage.

lurcio - "You will not shy away from danger and unpleasantness, and god forbid that you should..." - ooh, yes!

Though there is the dodgy bit with the dog collar, where I think Dorothy Sayers' capacity to make kink work isn't quite up to the job.

I'll have Helo from Battlestar Galactica's capacity to have healthy friendships with women that in no way change his relationship with his wife. I know men in RL who do that, but still, it's nice.

tribpot if you like the West Wing, you should watch The Newsroom.

I don't mind Leia delegating - every good leader knows it's important to have good people to do that jobs that you either do not want to do or cannot do.

I loved Matt Smith's doctor - and I loved River Song even more. The Doctor is normally the know-all, but River Song was ahead of him in every way, adn she could re-generate, so she was his equal.

Which is strange, because I don't like seven Moffet's writing so much - but he got that bit right.

I'd also take Darcy in the PD James version (forget what it's called) because he clearly respects her, and she argues back to him so well. But I haven't read the book, just watched the bbc version.

But I've found this surprisingly difficult to answer! There are not many are there?

Helo is brilliant - he's also the first (I think) to take the point of view of just because they are not human doesn't mean they are not PEOPLE, which is fairly feminist.

Although the series has a few issues from a feminist viewpoint, David Weber's Honor Harrington military SF series is mostly populated by non-misogynistic types. Even the misogynistic ones mostly see the light once they get their faces rubbed in it.

Star Wars and its Expanded Universe doesn't do badly. Admiral Ackbar is the fleet commander at Endor, tribpot. But the head of the rebellion, the one who built it from the ground up, is a woman (Mon Mothma). The first two Heads of State of the New Republic are women (Mon Mothma and Leia) and the new Jedi order seems to be around 50:50 (haven't counted, I must admit). The prequel movies were terrible, though. Amidala does a pretty good job in the first one, but is reduced to pretty much nothing but a pregnant tummy by the third one.

Jean - what's up with Giles? You have to tell me!

I liked Ross from friends till the MN thread....

Btw - I think strong feminist women are easier to find in fiction that feminist blokes. It seems easy to put a strong female in a film or book that otherwise subscribes to fairly misogynistic standards.

How about Pieter from Hunger Games?

Giles from Buffy?

Erm ... he's just lovely, but he hypnotises her, drugs her, and sets her up to face a misogynistic test set by a bunch of patriarchial wankers (yes, I know he repents).

Also, he makes her think she is more stupid and dependent on him than he is, and while he feels bad about the second bit, he doesn't about the first.

She got into Northwestern. She's got some academic game.

sab - Pieter, yes. Though, a bit humourless, isn't he? And he does lie to her, even though it is for her own good.

The one that isn't Pieter treats katniss fairly equally, no?

Pieter is another one who seems to respect and admire the woman's ability without attempting to take her over and control her. He lied to her but in order to keep her safe not to trick her into doing things he wants and she doesn't.

Oh, sorry!!!! I'm getting my threads mixed up! I thought you had something against Gilbert Blythe!!!

If you do, please feel free to elaborate - always interested in a feminist analysis. But I love Gilbert Blythe at the moment.

Pieter - yes a bit humourless definitely. And I found him annoying for some reason, he's not my 'feminist bloke' - but I never warmed to Gale at all, so she had a really rubbish choice of men really!

I am considering Jolyon from The Forsyte Saga.

He was the only one who understood what Irene had gone through.

I mean "Young" Jolyon.