If you could build the perfect feminist bloke from existing fictional characters ...

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Indulge me here. Where would you start with the perfect feminist (fictional) bloke?

I quite like Joss Whedon's men, but they all tend to have a worrying streak of misogyny/evil in them.

And if someone suggests Gilbert Blythe, I may have to become aggressive and silencing.

That's really tough. There's a streak of sexism in most male leads imo.

The only one which has popped into my head was Tom Hank's character in Sleepless in Seattle. Lame, I know.

Would have to say Lord Peter.

Always wanted Harriet to be true to herself, even when it hurt each of them.

Constantly listened to what she didn't say and learned and revised his behaviour according to her actions.

(Not perfect obviously - a product of his time.)

Richard Hannay

Never imagined a clever woman was any less capable than a clever man.

Great admirer of beauty in old age.

Yes, it is really tough. I've never seen Sleepless in Seattle, so can't judge.

Clem is really sweet (but, why do I have in the back of my mind he isn't that way inclined).

zero - ye-ess ... though I don't think I would be able to take Lord Peter seriously in real life. I conveniently forget he's 5'9 and wears a monocle.

But we could have bits of Lord Peter without the peculiar details that obviously made sense to Dorothy Sayers.

Oh. I was going to suggest Gilbert Blythe - particularly poignant today since the actor who played him in the 80s version of Anne of Green Gables died this week :(

What about Gordianus? Now admittedly he used to own his wife but that's hardly his fault, he was a Roman.

Oh, that is sad. I've just googled.

But, but ... he is terrible. He does that classic 'being mean to show he likes you' thing and he turns Anne into a Stepford wife. There's some horrible patronizing bits about women and the vote in the later books.

Quite fancy the sound of Gordianus.

I think you could have shades of Enjolras from Les Mis. He didn't see sex, only revolution and equality. Obviously the era he was in meant some ingrained beliefs but I do like him. Jean Valjean didn't do too badly but I think Enjolras genuinely didn't see sex as relevant while Valjean was keen to 'rescue' women.

Technically Littlefinger from A Song of Ice and Fire is very equal-opportunities in how he manipulates and exploits people -- but I guess that's not really what you are after! :o

Hmmm, interesting one grant. Though, if Valjean can be Hugh Jackman, I'd go there too, I think. He's more feministy/sympathetic than some versions.

trills - er, no! But nice try.

I do like a good baddie, though. They could always be reformed. But not, I think, Littlefinger.

The trouble is that so many "goodies" in fantasy see women as weak and needing protecting. Or they think that women are beautiful delicate pure beings of goodness, which tends to amount to the same thing.

Gilbert pulls Anne's pigtails when he's about 10 and calls her carrots, and she refuses to speak to him for the rest of elementary school, despite the fact he tries to make amends. I think he can be forgiven for one remark as a child, surely!

Does he turn Anne into a Stepford wife? He's supportive of her writing. And he competes with her on equal terms whilst they're at university.

I've read Anne of Ingleside but not some of the other later books, can't remember Gilbert being anti the women's vote. Will have to re-read.

Back in Ancient Rome, there is also Falco. He didn't own his wife, in fact she outranks him.

Oh, yes, it's absolutely forgiveable.

But this is our perfect feminist man, you see ...

I do like Falco. I haven't read much but my teacher used to read bits aloud to us. It's interesting - that reversed power dynamic makes an easier relationship, but it's kind of uncomfortable that it's necessary, too.

OK, I think I will Frankestein bits of Gilbert competing with Anne at university together with bits of Falco.

trills - yes. And so often, writers have a funny idea of what comes across as sexy and chivalrous, and what comes across as controlling and patronizing.

Like Riley in Buffy. Doesn't habitually murder women, turn them mad, or torture them, so streets ahead of most of the men. But, he does come out with absolute garbage about how he still finds Buffy attractive but 'won't advertise this to the Mrs' and about how women need 'protecting'. And he punches someone because they're rude about her.

Therefore, he is a complete lack of appeal.

It's depressingly impossible to think of any...

YY, but this is why we can take traits and put them together to form the beautiful whole.

So I can have the fact Wesley in Angel is genuinely turned on by a woman who's cleverer than him, and lose the fact he spends most of his time being fuelled by internalised misogyny and keeping women locked up in his closet.

I think it's true, Joss Whedon does struggle to write feminist men. Maybe Wash in Firefly is a better example? Certainly Mal Reynolds (whilst marvellously brooding and 'ruggedly handsome' to quote one of Nathan Fillion's other characters!) seems to have a right old stick up his arse about Inara's choice of profession. In Buffy the guys seem to struggle with the fact Buffy is a superhero - except perhaps Angel (although he also has to be evil on a regular basis of course).

Oh, Wash is lovely. I forgot about him. Yes, great bloke.

Not remotely sexy, though, is he? Which is tricky.

Mal is a wassock, TBH. I don't really get the appeal. He's not even very nice to Inara.

Giles has his good points.

It's not looking good I must say. I am half a century old and have read many gazillions of books and, apart from the two above I honestly cannot think of anyone who would go into the mix for my perfect robohusband. Clever, charming, time travelling, yes, demonstrably feminist, not yet.

Interesting question. Will think harder.

Ok, can I have Jon Snow's admiration for Ygritte combined with Jamie from Outlander's acceptance of Claire's being unconventional. There's a bit of a theme forming already - I seem to like male characters that accept the women they are involved with not conforming? Both those characters have a sort of tenderness as well which is attractive and nice bums-

Mal was the troubled hero that (ironically) Anne thought she wanted to meet. Not that she pictures a guy on a space ship, that would have been somewhat genre-busting. It was that whole 'could be redeemed through love' thing that Whedon had already subverted with Angel, who actually couldn't be redeemed through love but went Full Evil when it happened.

Mal was awful to Inara, surely in real life (so to speak) she would have found herself another ship to fly with - I can't remember if there was some reason why she needed to be off the beaten track, I don't think so.

I suppose Wash is a less irritating version of Xander, though - somewhat comedy sidekick more than protagonist.

You're in the spirit of this, Lager. And yes, I do agree, accepting women who don't conform is a nice characteristic.

trib - is Wash Xander? I think he's more like Willow - he and Zoe have a solid relationship that genuinely works, a bit like Willow and Tara. Or I suppose like Willow and Oz, briefly.

Oz is great. I'll have his sarcasm in there. But not the wanky 'it's a man's chord' comments.

Isn't Zoe Willow? Which would make Wash Tara, except I hated Tara.

I like Oz but can't get over the character Seth Green plays in Entourage, what a prick. (Meant to be himself as well).

Oh, dear. I wanted to like Seth Green.

I think Wash is Willow - sort of geeky, tech-support-y.

I suppose that makes Zoe Kennedy, and Kennedy is a shit character if I ever saw one.

I'm assuming that the Seth Green in Entourage is fictionalised, like Matt LeBlanc in Episodes. That guy is also a prick!

Kennedy is indeed an insult to the memory of Tara.

Vaguely related to Wash being happy to have a wife who was more awesome than him, I read this blog post about men being intimidated by smart women.

My favourite bit:
If you are intimidated by intelligent women, I am unlikely to have anything in common with you. Frankly, it’s probably better if you sneer at me and turn away early because I’ll just get bored of you.