posters about local landmarks including a brothel. I am uncomfortable.

[DoggyDaycare]

Would be grateful for help clarifying my thoughts on this, please.

I live in Streatham.

Recently a business development organisation has started painting local vacant shopfronts with pictures alluding to local celebs and landmarks..there is one painted like the callbox in doc who as Roger Moore was brought up here for example.

There is one for Cynthia Payne and it makes me very uncomfortable.

She did pull off some kind of pr coup where she portrayed herself as providing harmless social fun (describes herself as a 'party hostess' FFS) when she was sent to prison for 6 months running a brothel.

I have read the appeal court judgement and Lord Justice Lawton is at pains to refute all the rubbish spouted about it being full of high profile clients mingling at a Christmas party and pointed out that no such person was found on the premises but on average 25 men a day paid for sex there day in and day out....

I think the thing I find most galling is the hype that they paid using luncheon vouchers has been bought into- they are the main image of this shopfront-

Yet what actually happened is that the men paid £25 on the door, were given a luncheon voucher as a token, had sex using the voucher which the sex worker would be given £8 for at the end of the night.....less than a third of the money.

I mentioned it to my next door neighbour who thought I was being very precious, and also said that it can't be exploiting women if a woman was in charge of the thing....

I don't have any sort of feminist education or the language or tools by which I can really explain why I find this so wrong. I just know instinctively pretending it is all harmless fun/rather glamorous is wrong, and I object to having to go past this shop every day with my little boy.

Any thoughts welcome...

Hmm. Given that tourist attractions the world over tend to include places where people were tortured and murdered as well as where kings and queens lived (and generally weren't very nice themselves) I think you are being a bit precious. If something happened at a certain location then it's a fact and a bit of history, and can be used as a discussion point for (if you like) the wrongs of the sex industry. It doesn't necessarily have to be a celebration of it.

SGB. I don't think you are being precious at all. If the aim of this exercise is to identify and celebrate local celebrities then I don't think a local criminal should be included.

I doubt very much this is being done with the aim of triggering a discussion of the wrongs of sexual exploitation. (I refuse to dignify running a brothel by calling it "industry")

Not sure why I added SGB at the start of my post.

SGB- this is basically what my neighbour said, too....

StillLost, yes, it is that.She is infamous here, but that isn't something to be celebrated, surely...

The blurb reads "InStreatham Business Improvement District has collaborated with local architects and designers, Beep Studio, to create an imaginative and interactive trail highlighting the rich heritage of local Streatham personalities in a bid to encourage more people to explore Streatham High Road. As well as encouraging shoppers and residents to spend longer in Streatham, the trail will deliver other positive outcomes such as brightening up empty shop units and showcasing local talent, past and present".....

I have tried to upload a pic of the shop front

OK OP, who are the other people or what are the other events being marked out? I am not that well up on Streatham's history even though I only live up the road, but I know that the horror author Dennis Wheately lived there so presumably they have included him (and he wasn't that nice a man: bit of a tendency to racism and anti-semitism).

If, for instance, the only woman on the list is Cynthia Payne then that is a little bit iffy. But if it's a mix of people (including other criminals or dodgy types) then it doesn't seem that unreasonable to have included her.

That is a good question... not sure if I feel better or worse after reading the list...

"Eddie Izzard - Comedian
Roger Moore - James Bond actor
Peter Davison - Dr. Who actor
Ken Livingstone - Former Mayor
Cynthia Payne - Party hostess
Naomi Campbell - Supermodel"

What do you think?

She should not be on that list-even if she and Naomi Campbell are genuinely the only famous Streatham women.

If Dennis Wheatley was a local then I don't see why he should not be on it. I agree he held very unpleasant views but his books are an important part of the horror genre.

Virginia Woolf was also unpleasant, snobbish and expressed anti-semitic views. Had she lived in Streatham I'm sure no one would object to her being included.

It's a bit shit, plenty of criminals are glorified though (see: The Krays, Ronnie Biggs)

Naomi Campbell has been convicted several times for assault, though I agree it's not why she's famous.

The Krays and Biggs aren't going to be included in an initiative to promote local businesses or urban regeneration are they?

Not spent a lot of time in the East End then

Well I was going to say, she is famous, or infamous really, so from that perspective people might be quite interested, so well OK.

But I blanche at the euphemistic title of "party hostess" even if it what she described herself as, at the time she was described as a "madam" iirc and she did go to prison so...

That description makes her sound like some kind of socialite

"Yet what actually happened is that the men paid £25 on the door, were given a luncheon voucher as a token, had sex using the voucher which the sex worker would be given £8 for at the end of the night.....less than a third of the money." - Apart from anything else, I would hate to think that this measure of exploitation of other people's labour was being propagated as an acceptable business model.
"it can't be exploiting women if a woman was in charge" - disingenuous, fallacious bollocks to that. Exploitation of women is still exploitation - even if one woman profits.

Puffins there are individual businesses who exploit their notoriety. This is is a collectively led initiative. Adding the Krays to such a list being drawn up now would be liking adding Glasgow razor gangs to an initiative in Easterhouse. But never mind gives you a chance to take a shot at me.

I don't think that they are citing it as a business model; I imagine, having selected her (why??) they found it hard to produce a publically acceptable image (I imagine lots of people wouldn't get the reference either)

Yy to it being quite possible for women to exploit women.

If you think puffins was having a go, still, report it.

Tbh, if the Krays had been born in streathham, I wouldn't have been too surprised to see them on OP's list. I think the thinking went as far as "who's been famous here in the last 30 years or so?"

Of course the Krays were more than 30 years ago - I knew that.

Honest.

Oh yes obv your neighbours assertion that it is impossible for a woman to exploit other women (people?) is bollocks.

Cynthia payne must be about 30 years ago or more now I'd have thought? 80s wasn't it?

Just had a google

I knew that the film personal services was about her, I didn't know wish you were here was about her as well.

She is certainly famous (infamous) enough I'd have thought.

Maybe the issue here is not with streatham council but with a media who had her on chat shows and so on, made her famous?

Dunno.

Still, I wasn't in any way having a shot at you. Please feel free to report me if that is honestly what you believe. Or apologise. I don't much care which.

It's pretty clear that you don't understand what I was referring to. The Krays are big business in large parts of the East End, I have absolutely no doubt at all that they would appear on anything similar done there.

I agree with Puffins the Krays are treated as some kind of legends, local heroes, that sort of thing, much of the time. Having really infamous people linked is often as good from a tourist etc POV than famous people. Think of the fame and excitement over Jack the Ripper.

There was a massive deal made when one of the Krays died not so long ago wasn't there, with a big procession and people turning out etc? I remember in the press some fairly horrified commentary and also plenty of why not type articles.

There is a lot of glamorization of gangstsers, especially the Krays and horrible wankers like David Courtney and Frankie Frazer.

Mind you, OP, whoever came up with that list is a lazy bastard (to be fair, probably some poor little intern on no pay). It took me all of 30 seconds to find a perfectly good list with a wider variety of people on it.

I saw that the other day was bit about it. I think they are trying to turn streatham high road into another Brixton Village, [YUCK].

I am sure whoever invented that campaign has never set foot in Streatham, probably some bearded 30 something who lives in Brick lane, wear jeans that are far too tight and listens to Taylor Swift ironically.

I went to Streatham Ritzy once in about 1992.

Actually SGB, there are many people from that list who would be better. Norman Hartnell was the Queen's dressmaker for years, if they were trying to make Streatham look like an up and coming place, surely that would be a better choice?

Having lived in that part of London, I know that a lot of people are actually bored/ashamed of the Cynthia Payne link in a way that the East End isn't about the Krays.

Just out of interest, Streatham dwellers, is the White Lion still going? Or The Greyhound?