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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

FreeTheNipple vs NoPage3

149 replies

MN164 · 31/03/2015 08:31

How do we square these two apparently feminist debates?

Can "choice" really be the distinction that unites these causes? There is a strong case that models making a living have a choice (not just page 3 or porn but also "art" photography).

I'm confused. Help.

OP posts:
EclipseOfReason · 02/04/2015 22:30

Buffy "Yes calling people imbeciles is in now way inflammatory."

Yes, I guess I lost my manners after two posters insinuated that I'm a pedophile. Do behave yourself.

Jessica2point0 · 02/04/2015 22:33

eclipse, can you regain your manners enough to answer my questions, please?

EclipseOfReason · 02/04/2015 22:37

Jessica I did. It's on the previous page. It's the post just before the moderators post. There's a paragraph in bold.

And I apologized to you for not answering sooner a couple of posts afterwards.

EclipseOfReason · 02/04/2015 22:38

The bit in bold is reposted. The paragraph after elaborates the point further.

BuffyEpistemiwhatsit · 02/04/2015 22:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scallopsrgreat · 02/04/2015 22:39

The way you describe women's bodies. The way you compartmentalise women and dismiss older women. Calling us imbeciles (because women's mental health is never brought into question Hmm). That's just off the top of my head.

And I can't believe I'm having to do this but bastard is an insult originally used to describe child whose parents weren't married. Because that was a bad thing apparently. It was a slur against the child and mother because a man wouldn't 'have' them. And that is misogynistic. Dear god!

Jessica2point0 · 02/04/2015 22:40

eclipse, I asked new questions based on your response. I was hoping for a reply to those in order to continue a proper discussion.

EclipseOfReason · 02/04/2015 22:51

Scallops, this whole discussion is about breasts. Everybody here has been talking about women's breasts for five pages.

1.Why is it only "compartmentalising women" when I do it?

  1. I did not dismiss older women. I said that their breasts are not sexualised because they indicate that they are no longer fertile, fit or healthy enough to nourish children. That can only 'dimiss them' if it is your opinion that women's only worth is through sexualisation and child rearing. I do not. But thank you for asking and not making more baseless assumptions.
  1. I called two people imbeciles because they nastily indicated that I'm a pedophile by talking about a picture that was not linked to and I didn't see. That's a really fucked up thing to do. A particularly nasty silencing tactic. Just address the arguements in future and leave the ad hominems at home in future.

4.Jesus Christ, mental health is not a feminist issue. It's a people's issue. As if men's mental health is never brought into question. Probably not often enough when it counts. Usually they are just incarcerated or they commit suicide. You know, actual suicide.

  1. Have you ever heard the word bastard used to attack a woman? I've only ever heard it used against a man. Please do give over.
EclipseOfReason · 02/04/2015 22:53

Jessica. I don't have the time at the moment. But I'll come back in a couple of days. Sorry but my time has been taken up defending myself the other poster's personal attacks. I will definitely find your questions in the thread and answer them at a later date. Sorry for missing them.

scallopsrgreat · 02/04/2015 23:06

  1. it's not the fact you compartmentalise women, it's how you do it.

  2. your language to describe their bodies and their status in society was misogynistic.

  3. I did not call you a paedophile (do you even know what that means?) and neither did CailinDana. She asked you a reasonable question based on the 'logic' and arguments you put forward.

  4. women's mental health is a feminist issue (but thanks for telling us what is and isn't a feminist issue. Your name isn't Owen Jones is it?). Women's mental health has been used to discredit them for centuries. Just as you were trying to do.

  5. it's not about who gets called a bastard. It's about what the word is synonymous with i.e. Men's possession of women and children. Their worth is only in relation to men.

lemonmuffin1 · 02/04/2015 23:10

Buffy, tell us more about your qualifications.

Do you have a phd by any chance?

DadWasHere · 02/04/2015 23:10

I also note that you pointedly say it's women's magazines that buy these images - why is that? Is that to imply that it's women who are oppressing other women?

No Calindana, its just to clarify that the photographs I took were almost universally produced for consumption by women, not men. Nothing would have pleased me more than to take photos of women more around the average of what a woman actually is, rather than ones taller than the average man who spent an hour or more going through professional make up, hair styling and garment fitting before a shoot, just to make them look even more stunning than what they already did when they walked through the front door.

But magazines would not buy into the portrayal of 'average women' because their sales would collapse. They were not interested in selling a lie per se, though that is arguably what it was, they were interested in selling what would buy. But exactly why would their sales collapse? Its the job of advertising to sell things but does it lead or follow culture/society or is it a synergistic relationship with each feeding the other? If you work in a related field I would be curious to know your thoughts on it.

EclipseOfReason · 02/04/2015 23:13

Buffy "Who called you a Paedophile?"

Callindana "Your point makes no sense, unless you find a young woman playing with her child 'sexual'"

Me "It seems that now you have decided to cast aspersions on a stranger on the internet based on your projected opinion on some picture that I haven't even looked at. "

Scallps "CailinDana has you spot on Eclipse. No casting aspersions going on there."

You know full well what they were saying. It was hardly subtle.

EclipseOfReason · 02/04/2015 23:17

Scallops. You will always just see, just what you want to see. It's called confirmation bias. Must be a tough old life.

scallopsrgreat · 02/04/2015 23:32

No cailindana wasn't calling you a paedophile. She was questioning your logic. That was what I was agreeing with.

Confirmation bias. Oh my sides. Grin I'd look at yourself there.

It's not me that has the narrow views. You are the one spouting evo psych. You can't get much more limited than that.

If you've got time to talk shit argue with me then you've got time to answer jessica.

Jessica2point0 · 02/04/2015 23:34

dwh, I think the question itself is wrong. Its not 'why don't magazines show pictures of average women?'. That's an easy question to answer - magazines show pictures of what society says women should want to be. (If that makes any sense.) The real question is 'Why the heck does our society see breasts as sexual things rather than ordinary body parts? What makes them so different from other body parts?'

I liked the 'consent is like a cup of tea' analogy, maybe we need 'breasts are like elbows'.

Elbows have a purpose. They are useful to many people. They are less useful to others. Some people like to have their elbows kissed. You should not touch someone's elbows if they don't want you to. Elbows can be seen in public. And on TV pre-watershed. Everyone's elbows look a bit different.

Jessica2point0 · 02/04/2015 23:40

scallops, I wouldn't worry. I'm sure eclipse will respond to my points in a few days time. Heaven forbid we would let a reasoned discussion get in the way of an imagined accusation of paedophelia.

BuffyEpistemiwhatsit · 02/04/2015 23:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BuffyEpistemiwhatsit · 02/04/2015 23:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BuffyEpistemiwhatsit · 02/04/2015 23:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RufusTheReindeer · 02/04/2015 23:55

I can't get over someone not knowing that "bastard" is a word which has been used to put down and keep down both women and children for centuries

I'd like to think not so much in modern Britain...but I have my doubts

scallopsrgreat · 03/04/2015 08:50

I'm glad you said that Rufus because I did think I'd stepped into an alternate reality Confused Grin.

I meant to say last night but was quite frankly past it that I really enjoyed your posts cailin especially the ones at the start of the thread. They articulated my thoughts much more clearly.

Not sure that last sentence makes sense but hopefully you know what I mean!

ChopperGordino · 03/04/2015 09:48

How did this thread with a meaningful discussion about women setting the terms about their bodies end up with men telling women what size, shape and age of breast is "naturally" sexually attractive?

YonicScrewdriver · 03/04/2015 10:07

I liked the photo gallery linked above especially the head shot of Molly, so it's not all bad, CG.

Dotheyfloat · 03/04/2015 10:33

BuffyEpistemiwhatsit
"Because boobs are not news, but breastfeeding shouldn't be stigmatised or thought disgusting?

Look at it this way: at the moment it's OK for sexualised breasts to be packaged and presented for male titilation in a newspaper, yet the same sort of people defending this will think 'ugh' if they saw a breastfeeding women.

That's the wrong way around, isn't it? confused"

If I'm looking for 'titilation' the one thing it is guaranteed not to feature is a baby; at best it's a distraction, at worst it's a form of paedophilia.The same is generally true of most men. HTH.