Do you say you're a feminist/ radfem in RL, and what reactions do you get?

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Curious about this, on the back of the 'schools of thought' in feminism thread, but not wanting to give oxygen to it.

I tend to say I'm a radfem, which I am aware would make some real radfems smoke from the ears, but which feels accurate enough to me. Most people, obviously, are polite and don't show much reaction one way or another. A few look obviously shocked/uncomfortable and start sizing me up to see if this means I'm a seething factory of hatred. A very, very few (in RL, not on here) say they are too. Interestingly (or I think it is, given the NUS campaign), my students seem so far to take it entirely in their stride and do not appear to think it's an kind of unusual position to hold. Though they may just be being very polite.

I wondered how other people identify, and what reactions you get? I've heard people in RL identify as intersectional feminists, eco feminists, queer feminists, etc.

Gallic you just made Mr Ginger's day

ezinma, nice metaphor

Glad to hear it, Ginger!

I'm going to start this ramble, because I'll disappear into it if I keep trying to plan it.

Here's the therapy part: I am realising that I've been in shock all my life. It's not an exaggeration - I have a PTSD diagnosis - and I've fairly recently come to a point where I can detach enough from it to start itemising its effects and think what to do about them. It's the itemisation that's leading me to feel it's almost a generalised problem for women.

Luckily, not everyone had a violent childhood and the series of abusive relationships that comes after it. BUT every woman experiences repeated abuse. Because we must live in this world, most of us react to such things with cognitive dissonance. It's a precursor to shock. From the little child, whose imaginative world and complete trust are shaken by adults telling her she can't be a builder and she mustn't show her knickers, through the very early onset of sexualised remarks that she's not equipped to understand let alone deal with ... to the gropes, the put-downs, the minor and major assaults, and finding at work that there is a glass ceiling after all. And so very much more.

So much dissonance: so much being knocked down, winded, reeling, and being expected to get up again for more. On and on and on. This is like an abusive relationship - only it's women's relationship to the world, and there's no escape.

I'm not saying boys & men don't get this, by the way. I'm saying women & girls get a hell of a lot more of it and this is FWR, so you'll understand.

Some of the effects I've identified in myself include pervasive fear, unacknowledged until now, pervasive uncertainty about anything, timidity which used to be covered by bravado, and a whole bunch of other stuff I've yet to work through. But, in the process of examining my own shock, I notice what looks like shock in the majority of women. The self-censorship and second-guessing others, and the displacement activity of censuring other women. Fear of being "seen", which leads us to jokingly call our cosmetics a mask while frantically re-applying it, and means most of us have never seen our natural body hair. Continual fight/flee/freeze/fawn responses to men: quite normally, to all men. Anxiety; defensiveness; perfectionism; desperation to fit in coupled with wanting to stand out. Fear of being too large or too loud. You know ... it's such a long list that it might even be endless.

I need feminism because I want women to be able to safely stand tall in their own skin. I want women not to be in a permanent state of near shock, and acting out the effects of their injuries. I think this will be better for men, too, because it must be a bit weird to have half the population reacting fearfully towards you, even if you have been brought up to think that's natural.
I'm going to have to stop here. It's too bloody long already

It may have been long, Gralick, but it was a great post - thank you.

gralick, thank you.

That's a brilliant post, and I'm sorry you're in that situation.

Garlic said I think this will be better for men, too, because it must be a bit weird to have half the population reacting fearfully towards you, even if you have been brought up to think that's natural.

How do I recognise this when I am talking to a woman? If everybody does it unconsciously, then I have never interacted with a woman in any other way, so how do I recognise it? What do I do to help prevent it? And how do I know when it (her fearful reaction) has stopped?

I think lots of very nice men subconsciously expect a 'deference' reaction (which is probably the other side of the same thing).

It is very noticeable on here that a lot of male posters pass through, and they're lovely, and they're allies, and in all honesty they seem like great people. But, eventually, it just gets to them that there is this constant, unremitting focus on feminism and not on deferring to men. And an awful lot of them starting feeling hey, c'mon, I've been so nice, take a second to defer to me would you?

It's something I have noticed in RL on occasion, but it is more visible on here because, often, you see that female posters are responding to a male poster without knowing he is male, so they're simply not tailoring their replies. It's much harder to do that in RL because you have to overcome conditioning.

Interesting. Thank you for the responses. I wonder if, because we don't defer to other males as a default, we carry over our male-to-male body language into male-to-female situations. And that is perceived as being aggressive/overbearing.

At work, my peers are men, but my boss and her boss are both women, so I won't get to see that dynamic first hand. But I will look out for this during social interactions.

"...we carry over our male-to-male body language into male-to-female situations. And that is perceived as being aggressive/overbearing." Aaaand you're this close to "women just feel threatened because we don't treat them like special little fragile beings". I really hope that's not what you mean...

it's still relevant when a woman is more senior than a man in the workplace

There's a question of language as well. It is more common for women to "caveat" their language (it seems to me that etc).

Yes, some women do that, for sure.

I tend to amend my written language to reduce caveats as I'm conscious it's not helpful (yes, my opinion is valuable and it's what I'm being paid for) - verbal is harder!

I caveat/apologize massively. Then I hear myself doing it and apologize for that!

gralick

your post reminded me of the everyday terrorism project run at durham www.dur.ac.uk/beacon/socialjustice/researchprojects/everyday_terrorism/

Thank you for all the nice replies

Chopper, I've downloaded that report to read properly. It's fascinating, and will help me personally I think. Although it's focused on abusive domestic relationships, it very much addresses the general points as well.

Yops, I don't suppose you need to 'change' very much in yourself - not interrupting, listening actively and respecting personal space are the social skills of the decent. I imagine you are decent. But observing interactions is an engaging hobby in itself, and I'd bet there are many situations where you could support a woman who's being dominated by a man. It's surprising how rarely a man will interject "Jane was saying something interesting there, do carry on Jane." It falls to a more confident woman to do that. Or to draw a man slightly aside when he is 'looming over' a woman, or call out a bloke making daft objectifying remarks about a woman ... that sort of thing.

One individual can't alter the entire structure of our society, but each of us can mitigate it slightly, working towards eventual change.
Am I making any sense?

Really interesting post upthread Gralick. Thank you.

I used to be one of those who peppered my thoughts at work, and personally, with "I think", "I believe", "May be.." etc. I had a slow burning lightbulb moment when I began to work for myself as a consultant and I realised people were paying me for a particular expertise and I gradually reformed my sentences and became more straightforward (more like a male would be I suppose ).

However, the real lightning bolt happened when I was in a meeting with new clients and I was getting a load of patronising stuff from the directors and I got really fed up. Finally, I said "You know what, you are paying me for my expertise and I know what I'm doing. If you don't want to take my advice, fine, but you are wasting your money and I have a plane to catch." I stood up, packed my briefcase and headed for the door. The MD came after me, apologised and asked me to come back. They turned into some of the best clients I ever had.

But the real message I got from it was..I am entitled to take up space in the world, I am entitled to be straight talking, and I deserve to be listened to as much as a man.

That was the good news. The bad news was it took me until my late 40s to arrive at that point.

Gralick Really interesting post, great food for thought.

Whoo-hoo, Grimble, I love that story! Yes, you should never have needed that lightning-bolt at 40 but at least you got it. One massive amount of conditioning overcome - I mean theirs mainly, and yours too - in one fell swoop :)