Do you say you're a feminist/ radfem in RL, and what reactions do you get?

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Curious about this, on the back of the 'schools of thought' in feminism thread, but not wanting to give oxygen to it.

I tend to say I'm a radfem, which I am aware would make some real radfems smoke from the ears, but which feels accurate enough to me. Most people, obviously, are polite and don't show much reaction one way or another. A few look obviously shocked/uncomfortable and start sizing me up to see if this means I'm a seething factory of hatred. A very, very few (in RL, not on here) say they are too. Interestingly (or I think it is, given the NUS campaign), my students seem so far to take it entirely in their stride and do not appear to think it's an kind of unusual position to hold. Though they may just be being very polite.

I wondered how other people identify, and what reactions you get? I've heard people in RL identify as intersectional feminists, eco feminists, queer feminists, etc.

Great posts, Garlic.

Just to double-clarify, I have never ever met a feminist who judged other women for shagging lots of men... It's a stereotype invented by the sex-pos-ers.

Thanks, Irene. I was worried in case I'd made myself sound 'sex-negative'!!

I tend to say "I'm a pretty radical feminist" but by that I don't mean to ally myself to any group within feminism... I just mean I'm quite an extreme/hardcore feminist, who does not think we have achieved equality in the UK, cares a lot about things like gender equality in regard to housework, name-changing, DV and the messages small children get etc. I think I tend to see issues where a lot of women I know don't see an issue - even some of them who are themselves feminists.

I sometimes call myself "a raving feminist" or "hardcore feminist" as a slightly jokey way of putting that on the table. I know it makes some people feel uncomfortable. The other thing is though I'm very sure that I am OK with caring about what I wear, titivation, hair removal etc. insomuch as I think men are allowed to care about those things for themselves, and I think feminists are barking up the wrong tree if they think women shouldn't. So there are some feminists I don't see eye-to-eye with on that too.

My baseline is equality in all things, and where things aren't equal, maintaining an awareness of that. There's no one "group" or "school" of feminism I adhere to and I have no truck with arguments about trans things. I'm not trans and I'll listen to people who are if I want to understand it.

I don't identify with any particular group, partly because I don't have a strong enough sense of particular viewpoints of any group. I do have some strong viewpoints, but I am not sure which groups might also hold that viewpoint. And it seems that quiz agrees with me - I have pretty even scores, all around the same score, give or take a point or two. I suspect it's because on some issues, I am radfem, on others I'm more socialist feminism, and so on. Obviously can't cover all viewpoints on a single issue, but I can spread myself over a number of issues - and probably there are some inconsistencies. There are some things I am not entirely sure about, and some days I will lean one way, and other days, I got the other way.

I'll be over here, sitting on the fence, then. In a very balanced way.

I prefer comrade to sister. I have some difficult history with sisters. (The biological sort), and I can't always separate that.

I do say I'm a feminist in RL, and tend to follow it up (provocatively) with 'but, who isn't?' I bang on to DH about it who has started sticking up for women and gender equality whenever his circle of friends come out with something -y, which I'm continually proud of him for.

Don't know enough about the intricacies of sub-types but MN is always a good educator

I identity as feminist in the sense of feeling i am one, but rarely identity myself to others that way. Although they probably guess, when I say stuff like "but surely gender is just a divisive and damaging social construct" or "I think most small children are like that really, dd always loved to climb/run about/destroy stuff/not sit down".

If asked, I'd probably say "what do you mean by feminist?" and follow up with something about how I believe in equal rights, and you only have to look at parliament/senior business execs/housework to see that women are disadvantaged even today, even in the UK. And probably something about gender being a damaging social construct. They'd probably regret asking.

I find that if I say to people in RL that I am a feminist, they then proceed to spend all their time in my presence looking for what they perceive as inconsistencies in my behaviour/appearance/opinions according to their own definition of what a feminist must do or think. "That's not very feminist of you is it?" They crow. It's very wearing.

Not that I don't think I should be challenged ever. But it doesn't make for a terribly enjoyable summer holiday.

Probably not a helpful comparison but it's a bit like identifying as a Christian (as I sometimes do) and then being followed around by someone saying, 'Well, that wasn't very Christian now, was it?' when you fail to give money to the poor or a bed to a homeless person

I was out last week in a bar and was quietly talking to one of my friends, as I'd noticed a few feministy things I liked on her Facebook, (she'd signed the tampon tax petition, called for more support for DV victims etc etc) so I said 'I'm not ashamed to say I'm a feminist, are you?'
And she literally went really weird, raises her voice going 'I AM NOT A FEMINIST, GOD NO' then she notices this bloke who'd heard her shouting and puts her hand on his shoulder in a kind of reassuring way, and insistently related 'I am NOT a feminist' and nervously laugh, looking around in case anyone else had heard.
I was shocked and just sort of said 'I'm not sure most people are clear what it is' and left it.
It was the oddest thing. Because she so clearly is.

One thing that gets my goat is well-meaning lefty types (often men) who care oh soooo much about the things women suffer in less developed countries where sexism is something they can recognise, like women not being allowed to drive/vote, whereas here we've got it all sorted. One such man said in outrage "women really are second-class citizens in X country!" I said they were here too, and he was absolutely amazed that I thought that - me being free to have a job, have sex before marriage etc must mean that it was all fair and square. In those situations I tend to wheel out my arguments about how sexism is reinforced in a million ways on an everyday level. I feel that for many people, including many women, that's still so ingrained that they really don't see it.

In those situations, I feel like I'm being a really extreme feminist for making a fuss about these little things, like housework and the messages in adverts, that really aren't such a big deal.

YBW that is so sad and so weird.

But I am old so maybe it's the last 20 years?

YBW that's what I meant earlier, why is it still considered so negative for women to identify as a feminist?

It's really bizarre.

Yes it's still something I feel it's going out on a limb a bit to say about myself. It depends on the context but in most situations I'd expect it to put me in a minority.

I do genuinely think there is still a powerful force telling women to be attractive to men, yielding, and not frighten the horses, and being a feminist is cast as in direct opposition to that - you must be the type that hates men, kicks up a stick at work or is generally awkward and that's not attractive. I don't think that's spelt out, it's reinforced in subtle ways, such as ILs expressing disappointment and disapproval if you choose not to take your husband's name for example.

I have a friend who wanted to keep her name really, but changed it because her husband and his family wanted her to. She told me about it saying she was sure I wouldn't want her to cave (she's right, though I don't pull friends up on that at all and recognise it's their choice, she knows how much of a feminist I am), then tailed off with "but it makes him happy, so..."

It's like if you stay in your box and don't upset men, you'll be accepted as a nice person, and to stand up with a feminist argument means stepping right out of that box. I actually think if you do do it, and don't fear it, it's not that bad and many men will find themselves able to respect a concept of basic equality once it's explained to them. But it is difficult especially when men know other men who get their every whim pandered to and get to live in an unfair set-up.

My own DP who totally understands why I insist we split our free time 50-50 and does pull his weight, still says he feels wistful when he knows his colleague - who seems like a perfectly nice bloke - can spend all weekend, every weekend doing what he likes, pursuing his hobbies, having lie-ins, going away with mates - while his wife does all the housework and childcare. And in a way he's right. My insistence on fairness in our home means he gets put in a situation where he can compare his life unfavourably to those of his friends. The fact is that for the friends to have that lifestyle, women have to carry an extra burden, and so many people just accept that those are "normal" gender roles.

stink not stick!

Magenta Would your DP be happy with that lifestyle though? With you doing all of the cooking and housework and him doing what he wanted?

I think the truth is he wouldn't now, because he understands just how much work there is (thanks to my efforts to make damn sure he does!). But, if he'd just married someone who just did it all, to the extent that he didn't even have to question it, he wouldn't have questioned it. His natural laziness and just not thinking would have let him get on with it and he would have just assumed the woman was fine with it.

I think because a lot of women do do exactly that, many men don't have to wake up to the reality of how much wifework there is and how hard it is. That is why you get that situation where women say men just can't manage these things, and men go along with it.

Yay, definite for Mr Ginger! Okay, okay, we shouldn't need to wave pompoms for men who Say Something - but we do, and I hope he enjoys his

Werk, sounds like your friend might be looking for a nice abuser to settle down with :( There's a long & rambly post I want to write about this, but it's all wound up with my personal therapy stuff and I'm not sure it's worthwhile. It gets covered, piecemeal, in Relationships.

The standard for 'normal' female grooming is much higher and more onerous.

You know, this is what I really loved about the gender-blending 70s-80s. OK, I was 'In Fashion' and it was far from a nationwide phenomenon, so my experience comes from a self-selecting microcosm. It wasn't political, although like all fashion/lifestyle movements it was intended as political commentary - as well as being playful fun. Since everyone was fart-arsing around with their hair & makeup, making gorgeous outfits and trying to attract attention, an enormous chunk of gender divide just melted away. It didn't resolve all the problems - if only elaborate grooming could do that! But, in hindsight, the very fact that all the genders were performing equally created a level of equality that doesn't exist while half of people are expected to perform more than the other half.

It doesn't work the other way around, annoyingly. Women who turn out clean but unadorned are still treated as "women" and - more rarely now, but still - even less well than decorated women.

This isn't coming out too clearly, is it

Agree about men in make-up. I actually think make-up is (or can be and should be) fun, about self-expression and colour and experimenting with different selves, if you like. Of course it can be oppressive, as can many things if women feel they have to look a certain way, but make-up, hair colour etc. in themselves don't oppress women. There are cultures where they are normal for both genders, and times when it has been normal in western society too, and I really like that. There was something incredibly inspiring for me about first seeing Boy George on top of the pops, when I was maybe 13 or so, and thinking "who IS that!?" and literally not being sure if he was male or female, and it not mattering.

I feel that in being expected not to wear make-up, and also being restricted in their clothing choices in the ways that they are, men are oppressed in this way and I greatly applaud men who step outside those restrictions, like Eddie Izzard and Grayson Perry, especially when they do it in an everyday, this-is-just-what-I-want-to-wear-to-this-occasion kind of a way. I think they set a great example to everyone male and female, not to be oppressed by expectations about how to look.

I think I know what you mean re. the 80s, Gallic. Indeed, when I first knew DH he used to wear amazing outfits (and had long blond curly hair usually with a big silver bow in it - sadly long gone the way of all good things), while I mostly wore combats, dungarees and the like. We were both suitably fashionable and wearing things that suited our personality/tastes - DH loves peacock-y clothes, while I'm happier in workwear & DMs.

To me that's how it ought to be, some people like to dress up, others don't. The problem comes because it's expected of women, and not of men. So the fact that my grooming goes no further than a short crop haircut and regular showers becomes something of a statement, rather than just a reflection of my personality. (And indeed men in certain clothes tend to be assumed to be gay, though less noticeable these days I'd say)

I try not to get too hung up on this because the divisions among feminists seem less substantial than what unites us. It helps me to think of feminism in terms of layers. Common-sense anti-misogyny is the inner layer that most feminist-minded people wear close to their skin. One layer is better than none: I don't mind that those people call themselves feminists, though I worry they'll get cold.

From there on out there are feminist layers of various textures and thicknesses, which feel very different when you're inside them but look quite similar from the outside. My feminism is quite dense, and I'm starting to feel as though I have tried on a fair few layers, but I wouldn't say I've found a particular set in which I feel wholly comfortable.

Consider that metaphor flogged to death!