Safe spaces

[gowether]

Across a number of discussions I have seen the rise of women's safety raised, an issue that I feel very strongly about (as in providing safe spaces). However, as with everything else, this does of course have caveats and limitations. I am no absolutist.

A recent news article told of a US woman who was shocked to find a transgender woman in the female changing rooms. "It was obviously a man", she said. "I didn't feel safe".

Adria Richards, the IT twitterer, said that the puerile 'dongle' joke made by the delegates behind her made her feel unsafe.

A feminist comedian was no-platformed by students at Goldsmith because she was likely to contravene the safe-space.

OK, so I'm up for being flamed for this. But something doesn't feel quite right. I'm unsure of what it is - and I'm entirely open to my 'feeling' turning out to be something that I should intellectually dismiss. But, if pressed to describe my reservation, I'd say that there's an assumption of female weakness prior to the fact (does that make sense?). As if we're victims of what might happen even if it's highly unlikely that it will. I'm just starting to feel that maybe we're painting feminism as a collective of women that are likely to get the vapours at any moment and aren't remotely robust.

I think you're conflating different meanings of the term "safe space" there.

There is a difference for example between safe space such as a DVD shelter, and somewhere someone may feel physically vulnerable like a changing room, and a student union where safe space means people are expected to keep to certain parameters in order that others don't feel uncomfortable (I find this latter problematic but more eloquent women than I have posted extensively about this recently on here and on blogs, including the open letter in the guardian).

Who do you mean by the "we" that is doing the painting

*dv shelter

Exactly TBR

Ok, so it's late and I'm going to bed. But I'm just going to say this: do you know what's infuriating? What's infuriating is when people want to talk about the edges of an issue, query specifics and pick at detail without simply addressing the flipping question. I know I have no right to come in as a new poster and make demands, but seriously... If I haven't explained the core question I'm asking, I apologise - I'll try and frame it again tomorrow.

Sorry, long day.

Yes, exactly. It's a different thing.

I'm sorry that my post was frustrating - I have no idea whether you're a new poster or someone who posts here regularly but has namechanged so nothing to do with that. I wasn't trying to evade the question at all, just trying to establish what is meant by "safe spaces" in the context of the OP, because there are several examples there which have different backgrounds.

As TBR says, the changing room and conference examples are both women reporting their feelings. Part of the difficulty for women is that they are often told to both trust and ignore their instincts about safety - if they act on instinct when they feel unsafe they are told they are irrational, but if they suppress an instinct and it turns out to be right they are told it's their fault for not acting on the instinct

Are you talking about kate smurthwaite? She was protested as she has different but still feminist view on prostitution to the goldsmith feminists. It was pulled because the university thought s protest would make the place unsafe.
It's sad imo that they wanted to protest a feminist comedian who fights on behalf of women and is working as a comedian which is a job where women are hugely underrepresented.
Do they protest comedy from men who actually tell sexist jokes?

I have no sympathy with Adria Richards. A puerile joke made between 2 individuals in a crowded public lecture hall made her feel unsafe? From what I've read about her seems a lot more about giving her the opportunity of more self- publicity.

I also have very no sympathy with the concept that universities should provide safe spaces where ideas can't even be discussed in an open public forum.

"no sympathy"

I think that safe space can be extended to include the concept of a space where voicing female and feminist views I safe without fear of having a diatribe of the usual male-voiced views being shoved at you.

There will never be a change in how life is lived if there isn't the opportunity to discuss and think through feminism without worrying about someone appearing and saying "oh but I love having my married name." For example. We need places where we can theorize about what the world would like without marriage without having to go over the same old arguments about but marriage is good for the kids etc.

So safe spaces can be anything from a DV refuge which is physically protective of women, to an intellectual safe space where women can think for themselves.

I also think there's a big difference between defending the right to those spaces and having an attack of the vapors. We shouldn't even have to say how we felt if a man attempts to invade a safe space. We should be able to tell them to get out without having to justify it. The right to a safe space doesn't need to be explains every day.

Ideally, of course, the world would be a safe space for everyone, but until it is, then oppressed groups have the right to ring fencing certain areas in order to care for themselves.

I totally agree with your post there kickass. I don't know whether that's the understanding I have of the goldsmith safe space though, but that may be my misunderstanding of the situation there.

I had thought there was an additional layer to that though - the reason there were threats of protest were because te comedian was felt by some groups to breach the "safe space" environment, where certain people weren't welcome due to opinions, separate to the physical safety aspect of the threatened protests

This blog post talks about the "safe space" in a university context as far as I understand it readingmedievalbooks.wordpress.com/2015/02/14/safe-space-and-the-university-trigger-warning/

Incidentally, the "trans woman" was a part-time crossdresser into 'forced feminisation' who usually lives as a male.

I do have sympathy for Adria Richards - as a techie woman, I've been to plenty of conferences where I was one of the only women in a sea of men.

Now, while it's all friendly and grown-up, and we're talking about tech, that's fine, it's just my daily working life.

If however it becomes an atmosphere of puerile jokes and sexist comments that turns it from a professional environment to something more like school or a youth club, where suddenly as a solitary female I no longer feel either comfortable or welcome, and if the laddishness really gets a hold, I stop feeling safe (no matter how strong and able I am)

I don't think safe spaces are about women being weak, they're about mitigating threats - which is a subtle difference. Like seatbelts aren't about your dangerous driving, but about reducing the damage if there's an accident.

i understand adria richards also lost her job as a result, and it took far longer for her to find another job than it did the man who made the comments. that reminds women what happens to them when they speak up, especially women of colour

www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/21/internet-shaming-lindsey-stone-jon-ronson (scroll down to the adria richards interview)

I asked Hank if he found himself behaving differently since the incident. Had it altered how he lived his life? “I distance myself from female developers a little bit now,” he replied. “I’m not as friendly. There’s humour, but it’s very mundane. You just don’t know. I can’t afford another Donglegate.”

From the article Petula linked to - Hank is the guy that made the dongle/forking repo comments, he seems like a nice enough, normal bloke in the interview, and there he is victim blaming. The lesson he learned wasn't to keep it professional and not make off-colour comments, but to stay away from female developers. That is the problem we're up against.