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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Safe spaces

44 replies

gowether · 11/03/2015 23:54

Across a number of discussions I have seen the rise of women's safety raised, an issue that I feel very strongly about (as in providing safe spaces). However, as with everything else, this does of course have caveats and limitations. I am no absolutist.

A recent news article told of a US woman who was shocked to find a transgender woman in the female changing rooms. "It was obviously a man", she said. "I didn't feel safe".

Adria Richards, the IT twitterer, said that the puerile 'dongle' joke made by the delegates behind her made her feel unsafe.

A feminist comedian was no-platformed by students at Goldsmith because she was likely to contravene the safe-space.

OK, so I'm up for being flamed for this. But something doesn't feel quite right. I'm unsure of what it is - and I'm entirely open to my 'feeling' turning out to be something that I should intellectually dismiss. But, if pressed to describe my reservation, I'd say that there's an assumption of female weakness prior to the fact (does that make sense?). As if we're victims of what might happen even if it's highly unlikely that it will. I'm just starting to feel that maybe we're painting feminism as a collective of women that are likely to get the vapours at any moment and aren't remotely robust.

OP posts:
scallopsrgreat · 12/03/2015 11:13

No self-reflection there, then. Imagine my surprise. He doesn't think he's done anything wrong.

ChunkyPickle · 12/03/2015 11:40

Oh, and we're blamed for the lack of humour in the workplace now too...

because big dongle jokes are widely known to be comedy gold.

StillLostAtTheStation · 12/03/2015 13:49

From what I read of the incident Richards overheard a silly joke in a public lecture between 2 men about the male speaker. Nothing to do with her or other women.

She wasn't so upset she could find time to take a photograph (against the conference rules) and post it online. Rather than referring it to the organisers.

I read an article by another woman in tech who had worked with her making the point Richards has a history of being difficult to work with. Being a woman of colour doesn't automatically absolve her of everything.

StillLostAtTheStation · 12/03/2015 13:50

I didn't see much self-refection from Richards either for her massive over-reaction

slug · 12/03/2015 14:45

Another woman who works in Tech and who has complete sympathy for Adria Richards.

Tech conferences are notoriously unfriendly for women. That particular conference (PyCon 2013) has a Code of Conduct which these guys (there was more than one) were blatantly ignoring.

I've been there. It's not fun and it makes the working environment incredibly difficult for women.

ChunkyPickle · 12/03/2015 14:49

She didn't massively overreact - she reported jokes that made her uncomfortable - it should have been a welcoming, professional environment.
This was dealt with by the conference staff very well. She tweeted, I think as much as evidence as anything else, still nothing awful.

Hanks company fired him - not sure why, possibly he breached conduct terms? US is at will employment often, so they probably didn't need a reason.

Hank posted to HackerNews that he'd been fired - the internet got involved and DDoSed Adria's company - Adria's company fired her to get it to stop. The internet hounded Adria into hiding.

6 months later Hank has a new job, and he's avoiding women. Adria still unemployed, being harassed.

Yeah, it was her that over-reacted.

BTW taking pictures is against the rules? Odd, there are thousands of pics from pycon online! I've never been at a conference where they didn't want you taking pics and posting them.

Yops · 12/03/2015 15:35

Re the Adria Richards incident, here is the post Hank made by way of apology;

^Hi, I'm the guy who made a comment about big dongles. First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position. However, there is another side to this story. While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male, no sexual jokes were made about forking. My friends and I had decided forking someone's repo is a new form of flattery (the highest form being implementation) and we were excited about one of the presenters projects; a friend said "I would fork that guys repo" The sexual context was applied by Adria, and not us.
My second comment is this, Adria has an audience and is a successful person of the media. Just check out her web page linked in her twitter account, her hard work and social activism speaks for itself. With that great power and reach comes responsibility. As a result of the picture she took I was let go from my job today. Which sucks because I have 3 kids and I really liked that job.
She gave me no warning, she smiled while she snapped the pic and sealed my fate. Let this serve as a message to everyone, our actions and words, big or small, can have a serious impact.
I will be at pycon 2014, I will joke and socialize with everyone but I will also be mindful of my audience, accidental or otherwise.
Again, I apologize.^

kickassangel · 12/03/2015 16:40

hmm, so he needs to be warned not to make sexual jokes in the workplace, because that isn't something he can think of for himself? IF he's so worried about his kids, he should remain professional in a professional workplace. If I made an inappropriate comment while at a conference, my work would certainly expect to leave, and would point out that as I am raising a child I should think more carefully about my behavior.

As for claiming that "I would fork that guy's repo" was said entirely innocently and without any hint of double entendre, well, he must be so very innocent and naive. So innocent and naive that it's amazing that he could make the dongle comment he admits to.

So, minimizing, victim blaming, and 'what about me' all in one statement. How about attempting to engage with why the criticism was made, and thinking about the other person's perception.

Women should be able to go to a conference without putting up with silly schoolboy 'fnar fnar' comments that they are (indirectly) the object of. Why shouldn't they publicly denounce that behavior?

If men publicly act like that, why can't they be publicly pulled up for it?

Yops · 12/03/2015 16:55

If men publicly act like that, why can't they be publicly pulled up for it?

They can be. In fact, he was. In public. And he lost his job. So I'd say that nobody condoned his behaviour. The question is, was it a proportional response?

ChunkyPickle · 12/03/2015 17:00

I'm not sure it was a proportional response - but it wasn't Adria that did it, it was his company that sacked him. On the other hand, perhaps his company felt that it was gross misconduct, given that they were sponsors of the event and he was there therefore as their representative.

ApocalypseThen · 12/03/2015 17:01

The question is, was it a proportional response?

Well the question of whether it was proportionate rather hinges on whether you think adults need to be led gently by the hand and have what constitutes professional and appropriate behaviour explained to them. After all, could they be expected to somehow know this stuff?

PetulaGordino · 12/03/2015 17:05

i think discussing how proportionate his company was in firing him when that resulted in her company being DDoSed and her fired, when she had highlighted the poor behaviour of someone else, is rather missing the point. ultimately, the woman who objected was worse off for having said something. and that is the message that goes out to sexist men and women who have to work with them.

Yops · 12/03/2015 17:09

So is there one punishment, and one punishment only, in your place of work for inappropriate behaviour? As an example, should someone who drives as part of their job automatically be fired for a speeding ticket? I had one many years ago, and I was not fired. And yet speeding, as we all know, is idiotic and potentially life-threatening.

PetulaGordino · 12/03/2015 17:15

That's not what I said at all. But the overall message here is that if a man gets caught out, there may be consequences, but the consequences for the woman who calls him out are likely to be worse.

Yops · 12/03/2015 17:19

Yes, fair enough, and I did not address that in my post. The treatment of Ms Richards was appalling and she did not deserve it.

almondcakes · 12/03/2015 18:32

Gowether, I will answer your OP in case you come back!

The three examples you give are different issues, and mostly apply to all disadvantaged groups, not just women.

The example of changing rooms is an example of a separate space. Because we have had some success with feminism, women in the UK have been able to create separate spaces for their own use. These include group and discussion spaces, colleges, activity groups, domestic violence shelters, facilities for rape victims, separate wards for women with mental health issues and so on.

That we have created these is a sign of our political strength not weakness. They allow us to organise (separate political meetings about our concerns) , to enter professions and activities we were previously kept out of (i.e. you can't work in this Physics department because we don't have a female toilet), and to protect the vulnerable within our group - the woman who has been beaten, the thirteen year old girl going through puberty who doesn't want males seeing her naked, the woman with mental health problems who would feel worse sleeping next to a male patient.

The IT example is an issue of what does and does not constitute sexism and sexual harassment when in the workplace and/or when attending a work related event. The kind of environment people can expect at work is a legal issue.

The Smurthwaite example is an issue of ideological 'safe space.' It is about the extent to which people in mixed, group situations are entitled to protection against ideas they may disagree with and find personally distressing.

I do not think the three things are particularly related to each other.

'I'd say that there's an assumption of female weakness prior to the fact (does that make sense?). As if we're victims of what might happen even if it's highly unlikely that it will. I'm just starting to feel that maybe we're painting feminism as a collective of women that are likely to get the vapours at any moment and aren't remotely robust.'

Women as a collective are not robust. We have very little power. We are mostly ruled and policed by men. We have very limited voice and representation in the media. We are most of the poor. We are subject to male violence.

If you go into a changing room, presumably with the intention of getting changed, and a person you believe to be a man comes in, the thing has happened to you. You either lose your autonomy over the choice not to be naked in front of random males, or you lose the right to participate in various activities. But it isn't an irrational fear of what is going to happen; it has happened.

I don't feel that girls and women have the right to not be exposed to most ideologies they disagree with in public life. I do think there have to be some restrictions on behaviour in the workplace and in schools in terms of harassment and sexism. I do think they have the right to fully participate in public life without having to be naked in front of male bodied people. I think it is misleading to conflate these things and most people can see the difference.

StillLostAtTheStation · 12/03/2015 19:11

Another view of Adria Richards. Her response to this non- incident but which apparently traumatised her was to post it all on twitter and then, her vapours presumably having passed, spoke to the organisers.

amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/.

slug · 12/03/2015 21:04

StillLost. That's the procedure at tech conferences. Or at least at the ones I attend. The quickest and easiest way to contact the organisers, especially in a large space like that is to tweet. It' how you are expected to contact them, especially as it's considered poor form to call during a presentation.

ChunkyPickle · 13/03/2015 10:02

butyoureagirl.com/2013/03/18/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/

Here is the blog article Adria wrote about the incident. To me it comes over as calm and considered.

No vapours, no overreaction, just dealing with people making inappropriate comments during someone else's talk in a professional manner.

I don't agree with your link Still - I think people need to stand up and be counted, and that whispering back to the people behind wouldn't have been enough.

PyCon needed to know, and people needed to know that PyCon was dealing appropriately with inappropriate behaviour.

Had she turned around and asked them to stop she'd have been taking on authority that wasn't hers to take - she was another guest, it was PyCon's place to deal with their guests not hers.

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