Feminism for women of colour...

[AnotherEpisode]

As a black woman, I quite often feel sidelined within feminism.

I don't feel feminism addresses the difficulties faced by women of colour in western societies and quite often I feel I am drawn to race issues over feminist issues because of this.

I absolutely have more difficulties in this society because of the colour of my skin than I do because of my sex.

I feel that the lack of understanding towards racism amongst feminist circles gives me a stance of one over the other in which racism usually wins, which is unfortunate really!

This article, although written in a strong, comical and sometimes rude tone, gives a good insight!

thegrio.com/2015/02/23/patricia-arquette-blacks-gays-white-women/

Not sure why I'm posting but I'm interested in a wider perspective especially people's thoughts on the article!

I still don't understand your point - are you offering that as an explanation of why jezebel were promoting him?

I don't know what you're finding so difficult. All I meant was in the unlikely situation of Kelly and I ever meeting or Kelly reading this thread, if I raised his misogyny his response is likely to be what I suggested.

I can't see why you have turned that in to my trying to explain Jezebel's motives ( whatever Jezebel is)

whodrank I also said nothing about being scared to raise it for this reason. Calling out racist is not a defence.

Another issue for WOC specifically that came to me on the journey to work this morning is their invisibility in media, entertainment and public life generally. It is obvious why, given everything we've talked about so far, but it is very hard.

Before leaving school for Uni I had decided on a particular profession as my goal. A careers (!) teacher told me "But there aren't any black women doing [...]". The implication being that I shouldn't try either. Fortunately this appalling advice was completely overshadowed by several other teachers who went out of their way to help me explore my options, and by my parents. But imagine if it hadn't been.

I very much like the fact that there are highly visible WOC in politics, whether I like them individually or not, it's good that they are there.

But showbiz has a very negative influence. The acceptable appearance for a black woman, specifically, in UK or US TV and film is even more completely and ruthlessly urepresentative than it is for white women: thin, relaxed hair or weave, very light skin. In fact, you could say that a significant amount of
TV and film only features very light mixed race women, and almost never black women. This is not a criticsm of any individual actor, but the cumulative effect is harmful.

I started trying to list all the currently active dark-skinned black female actors I could think of:

UK
Marianne Jean-Baptiste
Nikki Amuka-Bird (Erin Grey in Luther)
(Josette Simon, but I haven't seen her do anything for yonks)

US
Viola Davis
Vivica Fox
Lupita Nyongo (one role so far, let's wait and see how it goes)
Gabourey Sidibe
Octavia Spencer
Rutina Wesley (True Blood).

It's not many, is it?

thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/03/14/athletes-and-models/ this is worth a look for an example of how anxieties about Black men's hypermasculinity play out in the media.
Also www.feminist-reprise.org/docs/aewdavis.htm 'The chapter "Rape, Racism, and the Myth of the Black Rapist" provides an excellent analysis of the phenomenon of lynching and the past and present sexual abuse of Black women by white men; however, Davis' argument is weakened by her attempts to excuse the public advocacy of rape by Eldridge Cleaver and Imamu Baraka. Even if their writing were, as Davis claims, "absurd and purposely sensational," the fact is that all women are vulnerable to rape by all men, and the use of misogynist, threatening language and ideas by men of color in their own fight for liberation is no more excusable than was Stanton's and Anthony's espousal of racist arguments in the attempt to secure the vote for women.'
The chapter doesn't seem to be online but it's a good book.

I read something about the freedom summer, women and civil rights a while ago (would have to dig out my kindle for the title) which had quotes from several Black women working with Eldridge Cleaver who were pretty clear the 'prone' comments were made in a light-hearted way. So they were extremely ill-judged but by no means part of a manifesto.
Those same comments seem to be used fairly often to dismiss the work of the civil rights movement and possibly just anti-racism in its entirety.

It's a pretty multi-stranded thread I reckon - very wide scope.

I think you're right that spurious accusations of racism are used to silence the naming of abusers. That's why solidarity and support are so important.

I found this a bit mind-boggling at the time - Diane Abbott accused of racism when attempting to discuss racism www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/06/diane-abbott-tweet-anti-white-racism

MR, absolutely - that thing of 'you can't be what you can't see'.

It's quite startling the difference between the general situation in the UK and my experience of visiting Aberdeen where there are Nordic and US companies which have more diversity in employment.

Monstrous I was aware that a lot of photoshop whitening is/had been applied to WOC artists and performers.

The only others I could think of was the lady from the last bond film, Naomi Harris, the cop from the shield - CCH Pounder, and Aisha Tyler who was in XIII. But again they vary their colour a bit in pictures.

Naomi harris is light-skinned though. CCh Pounder, yes, love her. Don't know Aisha Taylor.

Aisha Taylor was one of Ross's girlfriends - IMDB and I think you will remember her. I didn't realise she was also the voice of Lana in Archer.

In Friends forgot to add, (did Friends actually have any other black people in it??)

I have found that there are so few black women in my place of work and sector that I can present as I see fit. When I am in the U.S. weirdly I feel that having straight hair is the professional look and anything else is divergent.

Reverse racism is a silencing attempt. If you see racism I see racism too and they both cancel out. You will see it on mn all the time. Posters will bend over backwards to find evidence of reverse racism or some other misdeed that caused the racism because you know racism isn't real and we all have a chip on our shoulder...

I am hopeful that there is going to be a push from the hyper sexual look in the media in the uk as part of a wider desire to push back on the whole sex sells.

Woc need to be seen. My ndn told my mother she was educating me above my station and she liked us. But she was an old lady so it was ignored but there is especially in the liberal left that there is a need for woc to be at the bottom of the pile to sustain the natural order.

'reverse racism' drives me absolutely up the wall.

One of the things that's been good lately has been a discussion about microaggressions like thinly-veiled assumptions about someone being poor/the first person from their family to go to university etc.

Ages upthread I linked to the Indian 'suffragettes' (hate that term) and that was so similar - white suffragists were asking for the vote so they could set a good example to the poor voiceless Indian women. While blind to the Indian women campaigning for the vote within the UK, and also to women coming over from India to share ideas about women's rights. It's very frustrating a)that nothing changes and b) that it's more or less unknown history. (probably the two are connected)

I lost it with dp friend who assumed my entire family was impoverished and I was the first to go to university. It is very rude

I feel with reverse racism the logic is of racism only happens to nasty racist people it doesn't matter because they are only getting as good as they give.

So what was your point? Please tell me.

I have told you several times. I can easily foresee a spurious accusation of racism being made if he is challenged about his behaviour. I have clearly said that should be given short shrift.

I am really not getting why you keep coming back to this or what you fail to understand. The thread had moved on to the issue of calling black men out on sexism in general for this very reason and Kelly in particular.

I think that as white people in the UK, we swing hugely between institutionalised racism (whereby we don't even know we are doing it, it's just how things have always been done) and ignoring blatant abhorrent behaviour for fear of causing offence (e.g. Bradford). This second point may also cause the exclusion of women in community decisions (as alluded to by someone earlier) - let's head straight for a senior male within a group, cos that's 'their culture and we don't want to offend.'

And yet, when it comes down to interpersonal, one-on-one relationships, things are so much easier. I don't think, as a white male, that I treat my wife any differently because of her race. The love and respect is the same - at least that is how we feel (neither of us has ever been married to anyone else, and we are both still happy and in love after 20+ years so nothing to compare it to). And yet, if we were simply work colleagues, would I treat her differently than a white colleague? I'd hope not, but experience of people on here suggests otherwise.

Sorry, just rambling now, but I hope some of it makes sense.

• Apologies, 'Bradford' above should have read 'Rotherham council'.

Yops there was a mumsnet thread about Rotherham where they discussed patriarchy rather fear of being racist as a culprit. The girls we not veiwed as victim's because they didn't fit the correct mold. Someone up thread described it as being 'clean enough' to be a victim (I am paraphrasing).

Also I can assure the police feel extremely comfortable locking up non white people they do it all the time.

I haven't caught up with the thread yet, I have a deadline trying to destroy me.

It was me paraphrasing Andrea Dworkin in Mercy.

I went to a training after Rotherham on CSE - I had been in a bit of a feminist bubble before and was quite taken aback by the way the abuse had been framed as a 'lifestyle choice' for those girls.

I have a feeling it was about scapegoating - the 'everyone was too scared because you can't say baa baa black sheep these days' thing - I don't think it can have been a genuine motivation.

Yes of course the lifestyle choice.

That is what happens when you don't look like the right sort of victim. The assumption is you facilitated your own abuse.

The lifestyle choice explanation is just the white version of fast tailed girls. Although after Rotherham I hope it will have died a rapid death.

What did you think was the real motivation popping?

Also does Rotherham finally mean the end of unelected community leaders monopolising communication. I think it's a good thing but then I personally don't want government by proxy. But maybe there is a use for it in other communities. I only know what I see my own and feel a hefty dose of what do othes think?

All I know is that locally, the imams who do activate for change in attitudes towards women tend to be pretty sidelined so 'leaders' are those upholding a status quo that is not great for women.

Real motivation - I think like you say those girls were written off as 'choosing' to be exploited and then in retrospect when it eventually came to light that didn't sound very clever. I hope that after Rotherham and Rochdale it has begun to be challenged but it'll be a long struggle I think.