Feminism for women of colour...

[AnotherEpisode]

As a black woman, I quite often feel sidelined within feminism.

I don't feel feminism addresses the difficulties faced by women of colour in western societies and quite often I feel I am drawn to race issues over feminist issues because of this.

I absolutely have more difficulties in this society because of the colour of my skin than I do because of my sex.

I feel that the lack of understanding towards racism amongst feminist circles gives me a stance of one over the other in which racism usually wins, which is unfortunate really!

This article, although written in a strong, comical and sometimes rude tone, gives a good insight!

thegrio.com/2015/02/23/patricia-arquette-blacks-gays-white-women/

Not sure why I'm posting but I'm interested in a wider perspective especially people's thoughts on the article!

Sorry to come to this so late and thank you for starting this OP. I was going to post on Monday but didn't get the chance and haven't had a chance since, so I've only just caught up.

I can imagine the frustration you feel with white women (and white feminists) is very much like the frustration we all feel when a bloke tramps along unaware of his privilege and tells us we are imagining shit or can't see why the world can't be shaped in the effigy of a white, heterosexual, able-bodied man. I am completely certain I have been guilty of this.

"Rape trials are all about establishing whether you were 'clean enough to rape' in the first place." Light-bulb moment there for me.

On a similar vein i.e. violence against women and about how one solution doesn't fit all: There was a twitter debate with Lauren Chief Elk about a year or so ago about white feminists insisting that women needed to tell the police about DV and sexual assaults because otherwise how can this be tackled. She was saying how dangerous that advice was for woc because they were far more likely to be actually accused of a crime when one had been committed against them (Marissa Alexander, anyone?). Not to mention the backlash of violence there would be against them by the perpetrator when inevitably nothing happened to remove them from the situation because they weren't believed or the authorities just didn't care that much. It also emphasised how the justice system is for white people (men in particular).

I hadn't really 'seen' before how white feminism imposes solutions on woc. It was an eye-opener.

As is this thread and thank you all for your incredibly knowledgeable and articulate posts.

You sound interested buffy which is half the battle. I have learned so much from this thread that I didn't know about Muslim women and really grateful for crescent for brilliant explanations and others for posting links and opinions that I would never have known about.

Buffy can I suggest that often it is about mentally testing your position where it would either (i) affect women of colour differently (e.g. the DV advice scallops mentions above) or (ii) you would apply it to women of colour differently.

The first situation is about listening and asking questions-would this work for you in the same way as for me? If not, why not? What would you do instead?

The second situation is about asking yourself why you are differentiating and whether that differentiation is valid or desirable. Are you expecting less of or demanding less for women of colour than you would expect of or demand for yourself? And if you are, why?

I do find sometimes that white women who are prepared to cast a bravely critical eye over the actions and motives of white men can be suddenly very forgiving of the same or worse behaviour in men of colour without asking themselves why (Because Different Culture? Don't Want To Seem Racist? Oppression By Black Men Kind Of Hot? I don't know).

That last paragraph is interesting, Monstrous. Back on page 4 of this thread a poster said that white feminists had to recognise their privilege in regard to people of colour, including black men. Does feminism - or subsections of it - accept this point? Is that why white women are reluctant to address the point you raise? (I haven't seen it addressed in here, though it's fast-moving and I may have missed it.)

Yops I genuinely don't know. But all I read and see tends to suggest that white feminists are often hostile to the idea they have any privilege. E.g. one of the great articles linked above saying US discussions about the gender pay gap tend not to address the fact that white women earn more than black or Latino men and black and Latino women earn less than all of them.

I am not particularly bothered by Rihanna or Beyonce I am bothered that black women can only exist in these paradigms.

Not many people that a black woman helped to invent chemotherapy or CCTV.

Thexx how do you feel about black history month as a way of raising the profile of woc who have achieved this sort of thing?

On the question of white women having privilege in relation to black men, I can certainly attest that that has to be part of the discussion in the US, especially in the South where I grew up and still live. I came to feminism, as many second wavers did, through first being involved in or influenced by the Civil Rights Movement. Many young white women in the South (including me) who were drawn to the Women's Liberation Movement had some difficulty at first in identifying themselves as oppressed because the privilege of being white was such an overarching privilege in the society in which we lived.

I was not only far more privileged than black women obviously, but I was also much more privileged than black men. Intersectionality has always been a part of my feminism and I don’t see that changing; all of the American WOC feminists with whom I have discussed in RL still see race as the overarching oppression, and in my heart, so do I.

Just wanted to say thank you to the women on this thread who are being so patient and kind explaining how they feel, I've learned loads.

I have nothing to contribute, I don't know enough to do so, but I (and I'm sure others) are listening and learning.

But all I read and see tends to suggest that white feminists are often hostile to the idea they have any privilege

White feminists do seem to be hostile to that idea. And not only to the idea that they have privilege over black women and men but , if you factor in class, social background, wealth and education, to the idea that middle class and upper middle class white European women have privilege over many white men too.

I will get shouted down for saying this but by virtue of being born into a confident assertive, middle class family who never expected anything less than success for me , I cannot honestly say I have experienced any disadvantage in being female.

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11435008/Racists-are-alive-and-well-in-Britain-but-Im-not-one-of-them.html wow - case in point!

'ukippers are racist, and I am not as bad, therefore not racist'.
'also, intelligent, thoughtful writers of colour can be dismissed as outraged bloggers'

Best of all she is the arbiter of racism. No need to ask nor interact with anyone actually affected by this cos know your place.

Still Do you know any women who have been a victim of domestic or sexual violence? If so, do you not think that their experience disadvantages you as a woman? Have you perhaps considered that you could very easily be a victim of violence against women and that possibly, because you have not, that may simply be down to pure luck?

On the subject of white feminists deciding things for black women I stumbled across this this evening

www.forharriet.com/2015/02/i-am-not-yours-respecting-black-womens.html

Thanks for that, Petula. I have always been a big fan of Jessica Williams' work on the Daily Show, and I know a lot of people who were hoping she would be Stewart's successor, but I was unaware of this.

Thank you op for starting this post. As a Black women working in academy, I find the worst culprits for racism ans racial bullying and silencing of woc are the white liberal feminists, who are quick to highlight sexism and homophobia in academic institutions while choosing and I reiterate CHOOSING to remain in denial about their own racism

It absolutely is a choice. There is no shortage of access to information, discussions, opinions.

And plus yunno empathy.

It's such an aggressive kind of ignorance, too.

I don't want to fill the thread with instances of racism but I've been shocked to the core with the things that are said when I've challenged racist ideas in feminist groups. Beyond defensive.

I have a sort-of dry drinking game I play where every time someone says 'oh and this would never happen with race' about a misogynistic thing, I find instances that are parallel. It's a good thing I don't drink or else I'd be pissed by teatime daily.

Why do women have to do this? Social justice is about compassion, not fighting for scraps.

Of course it is ignorance by choice. It's also quite anti intellectual. Someone with real lived expertise tells you X and you aren't quite convinced so instead of asking questions and doing literally two minutes of Google research you just shut the whole conversation down.

I think someone asked up thread how many woc are on mn. I think the more important question is how many white mn don't have a single woc friend or family member to just talk to. I am a Londoner so I just don't understand how you can just not know or even notice some of the more glaring issues.

This has been the best thread I have read on MN.

to the OP for starting it and all the contributors for your time and courtesy.

Just popping up to say hello. Still following the thread with avid interest.
Need to catch up a bit though! Amazing posts by so many. Will try and contribute when I have caught up.

Big thank you for all the posts. I am learning so much - and I say that as a WOC