Anti-Transgendered thread in Chat

[countessmarkyabitch]

Started off as a vague question about what makes you feel like a woman, lots of people started mentioning transwomen, naturally. Has now turned into some posters stating that transwomen are just men and shouldn't be allowed use female things like toilets and rape crisis, pretty much anything.

I find this really offensive and have stopped engaging. My personal feminism encompasses women who were born in male bodies, and supports their struggle to be recognised as women. I also think they need the protection and help of feminists as a particularly at risk group.

Is this an unusual stance? Does anyone agree with me?

@hubert So why are feminists not turning up enmasse to LGBT rights discussions and campaigns and demanding that they refocus all their work on feminist issues, how we want them to do it, and refuse to acknowledge any hetero priviledge some of us may have. If they refuse, lets call them all misogynists.

Because they were born men which is inherently privileged. That's not their fault. It is an accident of birth in a patriarchal society. But I'm not going to pretend its not the case.

The reason that I mentioned transmen upthread is because I find it strange that there is so much talk of transwomen and how women and feminists and lesbians must do x, y and z but where is the equivalent talk around transmen? There is very little. I am sure there are reasons for that.

Thanks cailindana I'll have a look.
My assumption is that these people are just not very nice people. Less of a trans issue more of a 'not good people' issue. They are everywhere!

Hubert, feminism is not about equality and fair treatment for all humans (though that is the ultimate aim).

It's about recognising the oppression that women have suffered at the hands of men and correcting that.

If anyone, including people who were born men and grew up with male privilege, can simply wear the costume of femininity and say "I'm a woman," how can such oppression ever be identified. If those people can then go on and actually prevent born women from having safe spaces and from discussing their experiences by using accusations of "transphobia" then, frankly we might as well all give up because women can't say or do or be anything. We are simply nothing. Nothing that we do or say ever matters.

This is one of the heated feminism topics that I rarely get involved in. My personal opinion is that a man makes the full transition into a woman, then they should be given the same rights as any 'born' woman.

I know many people disagree.

For instance, most people growing up male will not have been subject to the type of sexual objectification that most people growing up female with.

To be able to walk down the street when you're 14 and not have people who are much bigger than you leer at you / follow you / say sexual things to you etc is a privilege.

No-one is denying that being trans is incredibly difficult and things need to improve - as for women, gay people, people with visible disabilities etc etc etc. There is a huge amount of prejudice about anyone who is different.

But I'm not going to accept that globally women and girls are in a position of privilege because it's patently untrue.

ethelb I do go to LGBT rallies (even though I'm straight) and work within my job to try and make a difference. I don't start dictating how they do their stuff because I'm not an awful person.
Yes, some trans women will not be nice people.
We can all support each other without making unreasonable demands of each other. Some people will, but there will always be idiots of every gender, sex, and sexuality.

this is a very interesting blog post about male privilege countess and its effect on someone transitioning.

Annie, you talk of people on twitter with big audiences etc...aren't you only talking about literally a couple of people? And do you really think that translates to the daily experience of the rest of the trans population? Its dangerous to focus on the extremes of any population and use them as justification for treating everyone in a certain way.

Not a couple of people, but you are right, not all that many. And I absolutely agree with you and others here about most trans people just wanting to live their lives quietly, just like anyone else.

But the extremists are the ones setting policy. They're the ones drafting party political policies and manifestos. They are the ones lobbying charities to prioritise trans issues in a way that disadvantages women. They are the ones that get platforms, stand for election, and so on.

Other MN threads have had academics and students admit that they steer clear of their feminist societies and their LGBT societies because their lives would be hell (and their careers curtailed) if they disagreed with these extremists. I find this so depressing.

I wish the extremists didn't matter, but they do.

GraysAnalogy, the problem is that an estimated 80% of transwomen never make any sort of biological transition - they simply wear women's clothes.

but Hubert, the demands being made by some transwomen of women and feminist groups in particular is unreasonable and dismissive of biological-born women's views. In a way that simply wouldn't be acceptable when dealing with other oppressed groups.

Quite a few people have made the point that people who grow up male cannot identify in the same way as a woman with female experiences, which I understand.

May I ask, does it change your view if that person began the transition at a very young age? Long before puberty?

Hubert, have you ever heard of the "cotton ceiling"?

Isn't that rather unfair though, to suggest they are just men attempting to use the costume of feminity? It's a slightly nicer way of calling them just men in frocks again.
I think it also unfair to suggest the aim of transwomen is to steal everything from women. It's also unfair to women to suggest its that easy to nullify everything we say or do.

It's about recognising the oppression that women have suffered at the hands of men and correcting that.

@greys the issue is that in some scenarios transwomen are dominating feminist agendas by demanding more rights than other women. The right to dictate to them how they self-define what would be best for them. That is no ok.

And, cailinda and GreysAnalogy I have recently found out to my absolute astonishment that some of the biggest, most vocal and extreme trans activists out these, sometimes operate in what they call "boymode" - ie they switch between presenting as a woman and as a man, when it suits them. But continue to say "I've always been a woman!", continue to demand access to women's spaces on the grounds of "safety", and continue to insist that they are the Most Oppressed Ever.

Being able to access male privilege whenever you wanted to. How nice for them.

Excellent points about extremists Annie.

So for example the expression "Female Genital Mutilation" is considered by some to be a cis-sexist term and should be changed.

If you google there is a lot about it - this is something that is being talked about "out there" it's not just something that one person said once and went away.

There are various ideas for what it should be replaced with. One is "Genital Mutilation" which would encompass male circumcision as well.

What do people make of that?

This is the type of discussion that is "out there" and where people are busy having strongly worded disagreements.

ethelb I've not experienced this myself but I think every section of society has a vocal minority of extremists, and I would hope they are seen as exactly that. Not representative of their section of society at all.
Is it acceptable just because it's coming from a trans group? I don't think so. I hope not. We shouldn't bend to the will of extremists (if that's what they are, again must stress it's not something I've come across).

I have to go now but I'll be back later to see if there are more responses.

Thanks to everyone for the opinions so far, I've got a lot to think about, and my apologies if I started this (or was on the other thread) from a defensive pov that was perhaps unfair.

God, it's so depressing to see educated women questioning why transgendered people "choose" to become the opposite gender. They don't. They were born with the wrong set of genitals.

That was my unquestioning view of being trans too, Santa, until I actually asked myself how one knows they are the wrong gender, when they have no experience of what it means to be the other gender. I mean, the other thread in Chat mentioned by the OP discusses whether "femaleness" is genetic (chromosomes), physiological (possession of a vagina/uterus/ovaries) forced upon us during our upbringing, or a complicated combination of all three and more. Whichever way you look at it, it rather makes you question the motives of someone born male wishing to transition as female. And then I came across the term autogynephilia and that theory (though controversial) made real a few doubts I'd had in my mind about my transwoman friend and other trans people I've met in passing.

Contrary to how it looks, I'm not a trans hater. I thoroughly support my friend, and any other transwoman for that matter, in making a step towards what is undoubtedly a very difficult life.

Anyone can don the costume of femininity countess. I do it every time I go to work. I am fairly adept at performing femininity. However it is a performance. And my brain isn't "feminine" at all.

I have no interest in oppressing anyone countess. But I will not have my life experience completely erased, yet again, but people who were born with a penis.

I am a woman because I was born with the bits that make me look female. I grew up with all the implications of that - being made to wear skirts and then told not to run around too much so I wouldn't show my knickers, being told by my own father than educating women was pointless as they'd only go and have children, experiencing periods, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, rape, etc etc.

All of those experiences are part of being a woman and form part of my world view. A person who was not born into that world cannot come along and tell me that those experiences mean nothing, that even though I have had to go through all of those things, a person who hasn't but who has experience the privilege of being on the other side of that fence can now come along, do nothing except wear the clothes that mark me out as a woman and then redefine everything about my life?

No way.

Hubert, you might find this interesting: transgenderreality.com/2015/02/19/how-quickly-it-happens/

Also, very young children experiment with all sorts of identities.