OK for school to reinforce stereotypes?

[NumptyNu]

DS's school has invited the 'dads' in for a special science-themed day. I'm shocked to say the least. What kind of message does this send to the kids?

A. Science is for boys?
B. It's usual for dads to be out at work, hence the need for a special day for them. Mums do not work, they stay at home and bake cakes for the PTA?

I can see the logic of trying to reach out to the dads, but really? What do you think?

You're not overthinking there Chunky. The whole reading thing is related to that very problem. Boys see women, including their teachers (who are usually women) reading all over the place. But that doesn't provide them with a role model, because boys are not supposed to aspire to be like women, women are lesser than they are and they must not be "girly."

But surely, the best way to fight all this, rather than expecting the government to "do something about it", is to tackle it at small scale: at home, in our families (extended, I mean), among friends... My DS used to have pink googles for the swimming pool. He was 3 and adored his sister, who was going through the "pink phase" (another stereotype, I know, but thankfully one that din't stick for long), and she had pink googles. So he chose his to be the same colour as hers. One day, one older boy (maybe he was 5 or 6) asked me why my DS said he was a boy if "she has pink googles". I said "because he IS a boy who likes pink". My DD1 (10) is furious when her (British) relatives give her "girly" presents for Christmas - mostly because we live in Spain and they don't know her that well, I think- all glittery, pink and fluffy. She loves lego, plasticine, meccano... and she's the most feminine girl you can imagine.
The school will do what they can do, and surely they can be suggested to improve certain things, but I think the fight against stereotypes MUST begin at home.

The fact that boys simply cannot see reading as an activity they may enjoy because it's all what stupid, useless women do when they're not standing around with their tits out is a more pressing issue in my opinion."

I don't think it's necessarily about it being what "stupid useless women" do. Although of course that is a potential subtext. I do think that if you don't see people like yourself doing something you don't necessarily realize that it's something you can do. Nobody would deny that it's important for girls to see women doing STEM stuff, surely?

Both needs to be done, IMO Five. Many adults, teachers included, have not thought through the implications of these stereotypes. They're only human and they haven't necessarily studied feminism or much psychology or sociology, so for teachers to understand and tackle these issues they need some real solid research and some decent solutions presented to them. Not just "here's a problem, solve it," which is what happens at the moment. Teachers have a huge influence on how children think in terms of sexual stereotypes but they need guidance just as much as anyone else. Expecting schools to just solve the problem single-handedly is madness.

I would definitely have a word with the school about 'Dads science day'. I think that's appalling.

And I think blue and pink pillows are worth mentioning too. I hate this attitude 'Oh, it's not worth making a fuss about/pick your battles/there are more important things to be angry about'.

Culturally embedded sexism doesn't come out of nowhere; it's an accumulation of these 'minor' things.

Hakluyt - I think it's confounding the issue though. I think that once the 'damage' has been done, you need to show these roles, but instinctively I feel that we need to get in there before kids become so siloed along the gender lines.

I'm not feminine, but I'm a woman, my mum isn't particularly feminine, I suppose my dad is a fairly standard bloke, DP is big and hairy, but doesn't have traditional masculine skills. I'd like DS to consider me to be a person like him, despite my lack of penis. I don't want him to think the world needs to be split according to the contents of a person's trousers.

Certainly, anything the school can do will be good for those children will not have this sort of debates at home, and will just think that "pink is for girls, blue is for boys". It's just that I find schools are expected to do a lot that should really be the parents' duty.

Nobody would deny that it's important for girls to see women doing STEM stuff, surely?

I'm not 100% convinced it makes a difference, or that if it did, it'd be the same thing. The messages that children get don't occur in a vacuum. Women's interests and hobbies are denegrated by virtue if being associated with women and women are not seen as adequate or suitable authority figures or even as relatable people for boys in society. I really do not believe that the stigma works the other way. Girls couldn't even watch children's tv - let alone anything aimed at an older audience if they couldn't identify with men.

I agree with all of you. But I also think we have to do something about boy's literacy! And providing male role models (I'm talking seconday school here, so they haven't got much time) really seems to work.

[sorry for the off-topic, but what is STEM stuff?]

Hakluyt drags us back to the starting point with a bump

Yep, I agree - and I love the PE teacher idea!

I don't know what to say. I don't see a clear reason for it. My little sister doesn't read for pleasure, I do, my mum and dad do. DP doesn't, but both his parents do, and one of his brothers does - I'm struggling to see a pattern in what I know, so I have no insight in how to solve the wider problem. My DS is only 4, we read him books (DP does bedtime story), he reads his school books to us, and seems to enjoy it - is it like so many other things, parental involvement is key, and parental gender stereotypes mean that boys just aren't getting as much reading experience as girls?

I think I get what you're saying , Apocalypse - that on the one hand society devalues women's pursuits and on the other that girls are brought up to think of men's pursuits as the ones that really matter, and in a sense to identify with men.

But even if you addressed the first problem - the devaluing of traditionally womanly pursuits (and I totally agree this is a massive problem), there would still be a problem with the second. Because the issue then becomes that girls are brought up seeing the heroes on TV/ books doing the exciting stuff, so to some extent have to identify with the boys (Harry Potter/Kwazi on Octonauts/Tree Fu Tom - because who wants to wander round the house pretending to be Rosie? She doesn't really do anything interesting). Now, while this might give them the message that boy stuff is something to aspire to - be it becoming the boy wizard hero who saves the world or going into STEM subjects - it simultaneously presents these things as a closed shop that the girls are denied entry into.

Not sure I'm making myself clear. But for me as a woman, it did matter to me enormously that there were women like Marie Curie, Jocelyn Bell Burnell (who I had teh privilege to meet as a 6th former), Dorothy Hodgkins, Emmy Noether who had made it in science.

By the same token, I'd like to see a lot more made of women doing "womanly things" but celebrating the fact that this is more than girly fluff, but actually a very serious undertaking by people with real talent - celebrating Florence Nightingale as a woman with a genius for organisation and one of the founders of epidemiology (she invented the pie chart, IIRC), the MacDonald sisters (we hear so much about Charles Rennie Mackintosh) as pioneers of the Glasgow school (rather than having women's art dismissed as just dabbling), Jane Austen restored to her place as one of the great novelists and most acute observers of human behaviour rather than her current caricature as the founder of chick lit.

STEM - Science Technology Engineering Maths (I think.. I may have got one wrong)

Five - it's science, technology, engineering and maths.

Thanks. I'm soooo stereotypical myself I didn't even know that hehehe

"DS's school has invited the 'dads' in for a special science-themed day."

If I received that letter I would take from it:

The school want to have a day for the children to learn about science.
They would like to get parents involved in assisting with that, and so are inviting dads.
I would assume the reasoning behind that was because dads were more likely to know about / be interested in science than mums
I would further assume that the day was really "for" boys rather than the whole school, as they have asked for dads only, so it's kind of a male bonding activity day

I would react to the letter by being extremely pissed off. I would wonder why they were excluding mums. Because they assume they won't know about science or be interested? Why are they assuming dads will? I would wonder what the male focus of the day would mean for the female students. The message "science is for males" seems quite strong, what will they take from that?

My older child would almost certainly ask why it was dads only and I would be at a bit of a loss to come up with an appropriate answer.

I think it's terrible, really.

I would be equally pissed off if they had a day for crafts and baking and invited the mums only. For similar reasons.

• apart from anything else DH loves crafts and baking. And I love science.

It's all so bloody depressing.

Chunky - I don't really think it is about boys seeing women's activities as being somehow less worthy, but it has been shown across a wide variety of issues that role models matter. Whether it is black children seeing black people in professional roles, or girls seeing girls as doctors rather than always the nurse, it is a long established method of changing thinking. The role model has to be as close as possible to work.

Schools for years have been proactive in having posters/books etc that reflect diversity. This is another aspect of that.

And there is very clear evidence that once boys see men in their lives reading, it does affect their literacy and their attitude to books. The pe teacher is a great example.

I think we need to remember that many of the families in the UK do, sadly conform to many of our stereotypes. You only have to look on the relationship threads to see that is true.
I clearly remember teaching a lovely lad whose dad was a rag and bone man. Dad was illiterate, mum semi literate. Mum was desperate to get her son reading. He was spectacularly uninterested. He even said to me one day - I am going to be just like my Dad. He don't read!
One morning mum came in and said that ds had decided to be a blacksmith, and mum had persuaded him that to do that he would need to read and do numbers. For about 2 weeks he was motivated and his progress was amazing, we were all really excited. but the goal was too far away and we just couldn't keep him engaged. As soon as he decided to give up, he stopped making progress. Every teacher tried everything. Honestly the one thing that would have worked was his dad coming in and showing him it mattered.

Buffy

I think that's to do with cheeking the parent who is around them most as a rite of passage IYSWIM - there's a massive overlap with that and mothers, of course.

But society is what it is at the moment...you can't change it overnight -or just by wishing things should be different. This is going to make no difference to unenlightened parental attitudes or even children's long term attitudes depending on the broader approach of the school...
If you invited parents to a science day it would still be mainly mums who turned up...
If you made an invite to Dads only to something like a home economics day you would be lucky to get any turn up....
So this is find something - on the curriculum - that MAYBE we can get Dads to come to ...
We are quite a science based community (I said near a uni) so I guess we are fortunate but from preschool to secondary we can easily get 'visitors' from both sexes to demonstrate/talk about science based things to the children.
I think that is the best starting point - they see this post-doctoral scientist (man) talking about forensic science, this post-doctoral scientist (woman) talking about structural engineering , this post-doctoral scientist (male) is a biochemist, this post doctoral scientist (woman) is a water chemist ...
At home girls might get told they can't do science - but they have seen the evidence and know that that isn't true...

unlucky - I beg to differ. You can only change things if you pull your finger out and make the effort. Refusing to challenge the status quo on the basis that you don't think (on the basis of precisely no evidence) that any men will come simply reinforces the status quo (and underestimates men).

They could do a "parents' science day - we particularly welcome parents with a science background and we'd love to see more dads at school events in general" or something?

Buffy, I think they are two sides of the same coin. The grunt work isn't respected so the person who typically does the grunt work isn't respected/the grunt work isn't respected because it is women's work.

Good for you for leaving him to it.