The Mary Beard Appreciation Society

[ArcheryAnnie]

Professor Mary Beard was one of about 130+ people who signed a letter to the Guardian this weekend, saying broadly that universities should be a place of discussion and debate, and the current habit of "no-platforming" women (it's almost always women) some students disagree with was inimical to the very purpose of education.

Out of these 130+ signatories, Mary Beard was the one the usual suspects piled on to, and she dealt with the barrage with such grace. The attacks were mostly divided between the "OMG transphobe" type" and the "very sad to see this nice old dear who didn't understand what she was signing" type, which is breathtakingly patronising when referring to one of the most brilliant academics we have. Most of the other signatories weren't attacked at all in the same way or in the same volume, although some signatories who are PoC were labelled "tokens" by the usual suspects, which is also amazingly patronising and dismissive of their choices and their expertise.

When I grow up, I want to be Professor Mary Beard. (But I would probably have to grow an extra couple of brains to do it.)

I think my issue with cis is that i don't think many people (including me) have insides in that way. For some people, their gender clearly matters a great deal, for others, it really, really doesn't, except in how the outside world treats you. If I magically woke up in a male body tomorrow, it would have a huge effect on my material reality, but I would still be exactly the same person inside.

i don't think many people (including me) have insides in that way.

Hmm, probably more accurate if I'd said "I think many people (including me) don't have insides in that way." Small change but different emphasis.

Buffy there is a blog post on the poor-privilege analogy somewhere

"I do think I am fortunate to be basically happy living in the body I have and being called a woman. I might be (and have been) attacked for being a woman, but I wont ever be attacked for being trans. I don't conform to most 'feminine' gender stereotypes, but tbh I don't think most women do. "

I think this is true for a lot of women. I'm am relatively happy being a woman, being labelled by my biology. The label 'cis' makes me furious because it is either done by transactivists who know exactly fuck.all about my life and my experiences (good and bad) of being a woman or by well meaning but patronising women (women I otherwise respect and agree with on many issues, actually) who seem completely convinced that they can not be true feminists and good people, unless they completely submit to the will of transwomen. So when they call me 'cis' and tell me that my biological sex lines up with my gender (imposed by society) and as such I am far more privileged than them, they leave no room for me to say, actually how do you know that? Yes, I have never been attacked for being trans, but then again you have never had rights to your own body taken away during childbirth. And in any case, since when did we enter a competition? I hate the way 'transphobic' is given as a moniker to anyone who even questions transactivists. I am not transphobic because I reject the label 'cis'.

I've had conversations with feminists where in one breath they are talking about fighting the rigid gender binary and fighting against how society expects them to perform the role of 'woman' and in the next they are self identifying as 'cis', and labeling me as 'cis'. Am I missing the point by a mile? I don't know. This is one of those issues that makes me head spin. It feels horribly like yet another way for men to get one over on women.

Also, love MB, think her response was measured and calm and even if we don't agree on trans issues, I think she's a brilliant woman.

But what about the struggle of being born as a woman, and then having to fight against all the things that society deems womanly roles? Something many many women experience every day? Cis seems to totally wash all of that away. It's dismissive. I think some people who use it want it to be dismissive. Because then they don't have to consider that being a woman is more than just performing the role of 'woman'.

I'm all over the place on this subject, sorry. And I haven't had much sleep so I'm sorry if I'm blundering along like a muppet.

I know for me, at least, I feel like I've finally come to an understanding that I am biologically a woman, and that shapes who I am, but I do not have to be limited by what I'm told a woman can be and do. So then when someone comes on and says 'oh, but you're CIS' it feels like suddenly I'm back to being told exactly what a woman is and can do, and should be.

I read the uncommonsense blog, and I'm curious about the trans fear by 'feminists'

These 'feminists' I wonder if they are feminist at all? as they seem to be crazy Republican right wing christian types who are using 'feminism' as camouflage for their religious intolerance.

Tarring the whole feminism movement in the same way Muslims are all tarred with being terrorists

Does this make sense or am I talking crap?

I think the thing that sometimes makes me wish I had been born male, even though I would not transition into one now, is the thing about socialisation. I would love to have been brought up with the sense of entitlement and self (sorry for using the e-word, which I know is overdone on MN, but it fits here) that many men have, and don't even realise that they have.

A while back I felt really annoyed with the standup comedian Bethany Black, who was basically tweeting "lol, stupid weak women!" (I paraphrase) about women who buy into what women's magazines tell them they must be and do. (BB is trans.) And I thought - you didn't grow up with this pressure, you moved into it as an adult, so don't criticise women who have had to deal with this forever, and who are still trying to negotiate how to survive. And Bethany talks about her partner a lot, who is a Swedish woman - and if I have understood what I've read from other Swedish women, women there have a relatively high status compared to women from most other places, so she wouldn't have grown up with most of this shit, either.

And most men don't have any idea of what this socialisation has done for them - they don't notice it as fish don't notice water - so people who grew up socialised as male and them live as women dismiss it as any sort of factor in the sort of privilege they still hold, and will always hold.

I also think it goes some way to explain why you don't see many trans men demanding stuff - eg that gay men accept them as partners - because they've been socialised not to expect accommodation from men.

So no, I don't think cis privilege exists.

BreakingDad77 the uncommonsense blog is an evidence-free bit of nonsense written by someone who doesn't understand feminism, and who doesn't respect women's boundaries.

You might find this recent article from the New Statesman interesting: www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/02/are-you-now-or-have-you-ever-been-terf

I really like that Newstatesman piece.

I mostly use tumblr for blogging, and honestly, I think a lot of trans activists on there are middle class white males who've realised that if they put 'preferred pronouns - they/them' or 'she/her' on their page that they can get away with the most jaw-droppingly misogynistic shite under the guise of not having cis privilege or something equally ridiculous.

I know for me, at least, I feel like I've finally come to an understanding that I am biologically a woman, and that shapes who I am, but I do not have to be limited by what I'm told a woman can be and do. So then when someone comes on and says 'oh, but you're CIS' it feels like suddenly I'm back to being told exactly what a woman is and can do, and should be.
This

I can see what 'cisgender' means, but the idea of 'cisprivilege' I find odd, for reasons other posters have mentioned. Yes, I had the comfort of growing up in a body which more-or-less fitted who I felt myself to be, but I also had a lot of shit as a teenager for being a female who 'walked like a man' (long legs, long stride, fast walk... that was all), who didn't conform to the 'look', who couldn't arsed to waste hours of her life trying to conform to said 'look', who was 'too clever'. Stating the obvious, there is a whole social set-up which is there to ensure that women, even if they feel happy with having a female body, do not feel happy with how that body looks, or with the responses that body receives, or with the attitudes you get for inhabiting that body. And it's pretty shitty, really, for someone who has grown up as biologically male to come along and tell us what a dead easy time we've had of it.

Because of course, it's dead easy to walk home from the bus stop in the dark, fend off leering drunks as you head past a pub, deal with a boss who is a sneaky underhand misogynist, and so on.

Thanks ArcheryAnnie found that useful.

really pleased to read this discussion with all its nuances, phew!
sorry is some people thought I gave the trans arguments short shrift in the blog. think that is really because my main worry was the no-platforming debate (which has been brought into prominence by some feminist cases, but is of course not restricted to them) .. and i guess that i had been a bit battered by the extraordinary misquotes of anything i said. when i read that i supported banning transwomen from public loos, i felt pretty sick.

nut thanks all (only just caught up with this thread)

Is that thank from one nut to some others? I'll take that . Hope you're ok, Mary .

oh blimey! that shd read 'but' ... see what state my typing is in

All typos forgiven, Mary.