The Mary Beard Appreciation Society

[ArcheryAnnie]

Professor Mary Beard was one of about 130+ people who signed a letter to the Guardian this weekend, saying broadly that universities should be a place of discussion and debate, and the current habit of "no-platforming" women (it's almost always women) some students disagree with was inimical to the very purpose of education.

Out of these 130+ signatories, Mary Beard was the one the usual suspects piled on to, and she dealt with the barrage with such grace. The attacks were mostly divided between the "OMG transphobe" type" and the "very sad to see this nice old dear who didn't understand what she was signing" type, which is breathtakingly patronising when referring to one of the most brilliant academics we have. Most of the other signatories weren't attacked at all in the same way or in the same volume, although some signatories who are PoC were labelled "tokens" by the usual suspects, which is also amazingly patronising and dismissive of their choices and their expertise.

When I grow up, I want to be Professor Mary Beard. (But I would probably have to grow an extra couple of brains to do it.)

Now I'm definitely ditching privilege as a concept right after this thread! Flora underlines why it doesn't work here.

I agree with Buffy.

I suppose everyone is coming here with very different experiences. I've never had a vocal transactivist trying to shut me down.

Btw, Flora I'm saying that I consider transwomen to be women when they consider themselves to be women. I like Buffy's Gender-Free concept, and my lived experience suggests that 'born woman' is not useful/true. But if I meet a transwoman who says that her experience is that she was born that way, it seems unpleasant to tell her that she's doing her lived experience wrong. None of this, incidentally, means that I think group therapy for women who have been raped should also include transwomen who have been raped.

I appreciate that I might be expressing myself less mildly if I had had some of the run-ins that some of you have obviously had.

Looks like another woman who signed the letter has been hounded off Twitter. She defended a raped woman who wrote an article about how important women's only spaces are for victims of the crime of rape.

For this, she has been hounded and abused.

This is so fucking depressing. The silencing of women by threats of violence - it's as old as time. I can't believe people are defending it - so desperate to be seen as liberal that they won't say "the emperor has no clothes" (and a dick)

schoolclosed I'm not trying to be difficult but I think you're saying you will be polite and accepting rather than that you do consider transwomen to be women, otherwise they would be included everywhere that women are included. The reason I say this is that most of us started out where you are but the relentless pressure for further validation that comes from taking that position has eventually led many of us to say "hang on, I was really just being polite and kind. I'm prepared to accept you as a woman to some extent but you must realise there are limits". That's when all hell breaks lose.

puffins which woman is that?

She tweeted as @Jsoosty, Flora.

She is great, I hope she comes back.

Oh, god, @jsoosty has been hounded off?

On the privilege thing, schoolclosed, I've never seen it as a thing about what you present as. Some trans women are pretty clearly trans, but others are entirely stealth - it's possible you know trans people without knowing at all they are trans. I know plenty of butch dykes who have at one or other time been taken pretty consistently for men (when they didn't want to be). One of my big sisters spent her teen years, to her utter utter disgust, being called "sonny" in shops, anytime she wasn't uber, uber girly. Convincing gender presentation can be all over the place.

I've often wished I had been raised male, because I see the effect (confidence, a knowledge that they matter, or should matter, their voices should be heard, etc etc) that male socialisation has on men, and I honestly don't think that either men or trans women even realise it's a thing. And that's why I am inclined to cut a bit of slack to trans men who are behaving like arses, because they have to negotiate being trans with a lifetime of female socialisation (be nice, be quiet, be pretty, serve other people). And that's what I think is behind a lot of the extreme trans activism, is people who have a lifetime of male socialisation behind them, are used to being treated like men, and then after they have achieved this thing they want, of transitioning to present as women, suddenly that they have grasped the shitty end of the privilege stick and are horrified. And they cannot imagine that women live with this all the fucking time, so they assume that the worst is happening to them because they are trans, and that - combined with the male socialisation that has convinced them the world turns around their axis - leads us all to where we are now.

So - male socialisation of thinking that they matter and that their voice deserves to be heard, combined with the cluelessness of male privilege not understanding what being a woman is like in reality (you don't matter and nobody cares what you say), leading to hurt and anger and a demand (directed towards women, not men) to be prioritised once again as they "deserve".

Hence why I don't think women's "cis privilege" exists.

^^ Spot. On.

Well said Annie.

Rebecca Hewitt has also been having a shocking time after writing that New Statesman article, incl. calls for her resignation . The hostility towards gender critical feminists is just appalling.

I've come really late to this discussion but loving it! goldencrown your point about 'passing' being a term coined by African Americans is very very interesting, I had no idea.

I just wanted to add a thought to this discussion of comparing privilege. I think one of the reasons the so-called 'oppression olympics' is bad is not just because it derails productive conversation, but also because it doesn't describe the real world very well since oppression is very different in different cases.

For instance, the issue of trans women and employment discrimination. Trans women often struggle to find work and may be fired when they transition because employers are hostile to gender non-conforming people. Trans men face exactly the same issues. These same employers would very likely treat transvestites in the same way, however they identified. Trans people will also likely face bullying and hostility from co-workers who think they are "weird". This is less likely to happen in e.g. academia, which is generally quite tolerant of gender non conforming people.

Cis women (I know, I object to 'cis' too, but for the purposes of clarity) do not face this problem exactly. Unemployment rates among cis women are not as high as among trans women. But the experiences they have in work are very oppressive - likely to be sexually harassed, passed over for promotion, assumed to be incompetent, maternity rights curtailed and so on. Cis women are also likely to be funnelled into typically 'womanly' professions which are lower in status, and will face huge barriers in typically 'manly' professions. Academia is NOT welcoming to women at all, see more in this article - www.theguardian.com/education/2015/feb/24/sexism-women-in-university-academics-feminism

Cis women are unlikely to be called "weird" in the workplace, and trans women are unlikely to be called "ditzy". Both groups face oppression, but their experiences are very different and are not likely to be solved in the same ways - is it really helpful to compare the two? Should we not just accept that both groups are discriminated against, but differently?

Do you mean Rachel Hewitt?

She is wonderful. I wish I knew her. I read her article as her explaining, very eloquently, just how hard it is. I thought she was trying damn hard to be even handed. At the very least I would expect people to preface responses with sympathy about her experience, which is appalling.

Aww balls yes, Rachel.
And I know , I thought it was a great article.

I liked Rachel's article too.

Flora - I see what you're saying. If I think that some women only spaces are unsuitable for transwomen because they are transwomen, then I don't really think they are women and I am just saying they are to avoid hurt/conflict. But I don't want to negate transwomen any more than I want them to negate me. I can see how we got here. Especially in a legalistic society where transwomen can turn to the law if the women running a women's only space say, for whatever reason, that it isn't a suitable space for a transwoman.

I can't see a way of forcing the law into accepting blurred gender lines (patriarchal as it is) or of forcing transwomen to show compassion to other women who need to be away from penises for a while. I have no idea what I would do if I met a woman with a penis in a communal changing room. Probably because I am a woman and have been socialised to be vaguely ashamed of my body, I can't even imagine any woman with non-standard genitals wanting to use a communal changing room. And, as Flora points out, it's pretty bloody difficult to construct a water-tight argument which doesn't end: "But you're not actually a woman!"

Annie I think talking about socialisation instead of privilege helps me to think about this too - and I think your description of what happens to transwomen when they transition is vivid and rings true.

And yet, and yet... I don't want to say that transwomen are not women. It lacks compassion. It denies another person's lived experience. I am sure, though, that women are being silenced and that is utterly shit. The people you've mentioned upthread are just the thin end of an enormous wedge, most of whom never dared open their mouths in the first place.

I absolutely agree schools about showing compassion towards trans people. In my day-to-day life I always always use preferred pronouns with the trans people I know, and would never dream of being rude to them and challenging their identities. I'm lucky enough to know trans people who are immensely respectful and great people.

But I think this urge to be really nice and compassionate is partly a product of female socialisation. We've been taught not to rock the boat, to always be nice even when it's at the cost of our own happiness or safety. This then extends to well-intentioned women humouring violent misogynists because they claim to feel like women, which is surely not a good thing, no matter how much it is motivated by compassion.

Can I be provocative for a moment? I've never yet heard a convincing argument about why MtF drag is any different from blackface. Similarly, I don't really know why a man feeling like a woman on the inside is any different from a white person feeling black on the inside. Bearing in mind that racist eugenicists really really did think that the brains of black people were just different from white people, and I'm sure there are many racist people alive today who think the same, so this is not a trivial comparison. Any thoughts? I'm prepared to be persuaded that there's a difference, but I haven't thus far heard a convincing argument on this.

I'd be particularly interested in hearing from WoC on this.

Hmm... I instinctively dislike drag. I'd be interested to hear thoughts. I'm pretty clear in my mind that it's completely different to women wearing e.g. tuxedos.

This Slate article is interesting: www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/02/17/is_mary_cheney_right_about_drag_being_like_blackface.html

As is this one, about the arguments between gay men and transwomen: www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/05/30/is_tranny_a_slur_or_an_identity_who_decides.html

But back in feminism, it's the silencing that has got to stop. I wouldn't have any of these conversations with my real-life face attached - and that's a problem.

I instinctively dislike drag. I'd be interested to hear thoughts. I'm pretty clear in my mind that it's completely different to women wearing e.g. tuxedos.

Completely different. I'm very conventionally feminine but the only trouser suit I've ever had was a tuxedo , and very obviously still a woman in it.

This is thread has me pondering about where drag stops being drag as a choice simply as a means of making a living as an entertainer and spills over into being an issue of trans identity. Conchita Wurst for example?