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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'If a woman is drunk a man should not be prosecuted for rape'

208 replies

YouBetterWerk · 11/02/2015 11:22

Wanker barrister on This Morning saying this right now. Great woman with counterpoints at least.
I just threw my cornflakes at the TV. Sad

OP posts:
PilchardPrincess · 13/02/2015 10:01

Yes I think that would be good.

As ever it's hard to understand that people think differently. I wouldn't (and haven't) thought of drunken regretted sex as anything other than that, and as a rule I try not to regret things and so I while I have thought "well that wasn't too clever" I don't go in for the whole regret thing.

I would say my friends are the same.

But maybe there are women out there who do behave in a completely different way to what I would understand as obvious and normal. I find it hard to believe though. So yes research would be good.

Incidentally more on the BBC today here it's data from ONS. It says

  • 1/5 of victims of serious sexual assault were asleep or unconscious
  • 1/10 said their assailant had choked or strangled them
  • 17% reported their most recent assault to the police

I think that many people simply don't understand the realities of sexual assault do they. They read "rape" and they think "gentle but accidental sex" like a normal fuck with a woman who is happy but not swinging from the chandeliers. They don't understand the absolute loathsomeness of someone touching you when you don't want them to and the violation of someone stuffing / forcing something into your body.

I think they're either stupid or wilfully obtuse and if the latter you've got to wonder why really.

scallopsrgreat · 13/02/2015 10:12

It is also only ever purported that women regret sex in the morning. That is a loaded concept if ever there was one. Is it even true? If so, why would that be? Answers to the second question could be quite scary in terms of social pressures, how men view women, consequences for women of having sex in today's society etc.

PetulaGordino · 13/02/2015 10:17

i lived with six other girls for a number of years. there was plenty of drinking believe me, and in the course of that time many of us had consensual sex with men that we regretted afterwards (embarrassment and gentle mockery ensued). many of us also experienced sexual assault and/or rape (horror, sadness, support, advice and cuddles if wanted ensued). we very much knew the difference. incidentally, none of those assaults/rapes were reported in the end for various reasons

i am sure there are women who are malicious and liars - women are after all human. i just don't see it as some sort of intrinsic personality trait as MRAs seem to, where women are just waiting for the law to make it easier for them to make false accusations of rape against innocent men when they regret the consensual sex they have with them. if anything, many women are keen to explain and excuse at all costs bad and dangerous behaviour in men for obvious reasons (see threads passim)

PetulaGordino · 13/02/2015 10:19

scallops i crossed with you there. iirc the regret about the sex was usually that it turned out to be far less satisfying than they were hoping for (due to alcohol, partner who didn't care about their pleasure, that sort of thing), rather than feeling ashamed about having had sex iyswim

PilchardPrincess · 13/02/2015 10:25

Yes scallops just rereading my post.

I haven't regretted sex because why would I? If I've gone out and got pissed and shagged a bloke who was, what, not that tasty or something? Then I write it off to experience and proceed without a second thought. Given that going out and getting drunk and pulling was quite normal within my peer group when I was young, what/why are the regrets coming from? Got pissed, pulled, nothing to see here, surely?

It is weird. Maybe when people say "sex the woman regrets in the morning" some of them mean "because she picked a bad 'un who wouldn't take no for an answer / had a go at her while she was passed out"?

And yes clearly some women are going to be very strange and behave in an unusual manner as are some men. But to take what strange people do and make law on that basis (but only when it's to do with women) is not the correct way to proceed surely.

PetulaGordino · 13/02/2015 10:28

"But to take what strange people do and make law on that basis (but only when it's to do with women) is not the correct way to proceed surely."

exactly

BreakingDad77 · 13/02/2015 10:31

Am I right in thinking not long ago women would also have all their sexual history trawled through during the case? Does that still happen?

scallopsrgreat · 13/02/2015 10:38

Yy to both Pilchard and Petula, especially your point about crap sex, Petula. I don't doubt women regret sex btw. But is it only (or predominantly) women? If so why the skew?

And I meant to say I completely agree with what you said about some people's perceptions of rape, Pilchard.

BuffytheThunderLizard · 13/02/2015 10:43

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scallopsrgreat · 13/02/2015 11:01

Well yes Buffy. Those men who want to continue raping women and blaming women for it. Win win.

PilchardPrincess · 13/02/2015 11:14

There was a rule brought in that they aren't allowed to bring up sexual history unless they can show it pertains to the case. A lawyer on a blog linked to ages ago on here said that the first thing the defence does in cases is apply to the judge to get sexual history included and if they succeed they know that's going to make things much easier for them.

PilchardPrincess · 13/02/2015 11:17

scallops I think the idea that men are always desperate for it and will do anything that moves is nonsense. While women need to be coaxed into it and will probably think better of it in the morning.

Back to gender roles and stereotypes isn't it they need to begone asap and pdq imo.

It's to do with some kind of knights of the round table OH MY GOD I TOOK MY EYE OFF MY VIRTUE NOW I'M RUINED idea or something.

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 13/02/2015 11:32

Yy Buffy. I might regret giving my last £20 to a homeless person when drunk and then needing to borrow money from a friend - doesn't mean I pull out a theft accusation.

Dervel · 13/02/2015 12:00

I'll echo Buffy's call for more research. I think the "facts" both sides throw around are suspect for a myriad of reasons.

That is not to say I myself am not biased, because I very much am. However that is down to personal experience of only having had only two male friends sexually assaulted by women compared to actually having lost count of the number of female friends who have suffered either sexual assault or rape.

I know which I suspect is likely the bigger problem here.

Up thread it was raised about social pressure and differing consequences for women. I'd also like to raise the point of many men being frankly predatory in their attitudes towards sex. Men who may never actually commit an assault or rape, but when that is the backdrop of human sexuality it is hardly surprising rape is so common. I would like to take the opportunity to challenge that. Not for a moment do I believe that's your (feminists) job to do so, rather maybe how we as society should frame the discussion.

BreakingDad77 · 13/02/2015 12:07

Dervel do you mind if I asked what happened to your male friends?

BuffytheThunderLizard · 13/02/2015 15:10

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Dervel · 13/02/2015 15:17

I for one would be of the assumption you were doing a good job.

HouseWhereNobodyLives · 14/02/2015 06:08

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BuffytheThunderLizard · 14/02/2015 09:52

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StillLostAtTheStation · 15/02/2015 21:58

Logically, if you've consensually had lots of sex before (including drunk sex) and never accused anyone of rape, surely the chances of you suddenly worrying about regretted sex enough to make a false accusation are really low?

I wonder if any prosecuter has run a case that way? It is as you say utterly illogical that a woman who is happy to have lots of casual sex, whether recreationally or professionally, is going to make a false accusation.

BuffytheThunderLizard · 15/02/2015 22:01

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertieBotts · 15/02/2015 23:21

Oh I do love it when you start picking apart commonly accepted "logic" and realise it's total nonsense. It's one of my favourite things to do, DH thinks I am totally illogical, but it's astounding, really, to realise how many commonly accepted "facts" are just, basically, totally made up.

It is depressing though, because when you try to explain it to people they get irritatingly defensive about it, and then also, not everybody gets it so forevermore you're going "Well yeah but nobody really believes that, right, I mean it doesn't make any sense!" and forgetting that, in fact, most people still do believe this, most people don't question "common knowledge" and a lot of people don't like thinking even when this is pointed out to them or all of the thinking done and laid out in a nice logical way FOR them.

So, there is that.

It was ages ago now but about the post by the police officer who took a girl home because they felt she was too drunk to consent. There are basically two possible scenarios if they had left her be.

  1. The guy was a genuinely nice man, and wanted to get the girl home safely himself, because perhaps he lived near her, or he was worried that in her state she might wander into a river. Or he believed some rape myths himself and was worried she might fall prey to one of those pesky bush rapists. He didn't put her in a taxi because he trusted himself more than a taxi, it wasn't very far, or perhaps, he had promised a friend that he would see her home safely or something. He might have gone into the house with her. He may have felt flattered by her attention, they might even have had consensual but not very coherent sex, initiated by her. Perhaps they started to have sex, and she fell asleep or changed her mind, so he left or stopped. Or he might have felt unattracted to her, felt worried about taking advantage, or she didn't want sex, so he left.
  1. The guy was a rapist. He had noticed how she was all over him, and thought that he might get lucky. He offered to walk her home and look after her. When they got there, perhaps they would have had consensual sex. Or, she might have changed her mind halfway through, fallen asleep before or during, or she never wanted sex in the first place. The difference with the first scenario is that this man is a rapist, so he continues, or he pushes past smaller boundaries in order to get access to bigger ones. Boundaries are weaker when a person is that drunk. The difference is that this man takes advantage, whereas the man in the first scenario does not.

In either situation, they could have had consensual sex. Rapists don't commit rape every time they have sex with somebody. Some of the time it's consensual, perhaps most of the time. The difference is how they react when their partner is not so keen. A non rapist will stop, whereas a rapist carries on. That's literally the only difference.

You will notice that I did not put a scenario where the woman has consensual drunk sex and then wakes up in the morning and thinks "Shit!" and reports rape. That is because this is just not a likely scenario, as discussed many times in this thread. People who think that it is, or who claim to have known someone who has done it, are usually operating on massive misinformation about the nature of the encounter (which is not surprising considering they were not there), making massive assumptions about the nature of the encounter (which actually make no logical sense when you think about them properly) or the person that they know is a massive drama queen, who enjoys shouting their mouth off but was never actually going to go to the police in the first place, because they know themselves that nothing happened. So, again, misinformation.

PetulaGordino · 15/02/2015 23:24

Bertie re the resistance to questioning "common knowledge" do you think it is similar to when people are resistant to accepting that they are in any way socialised into certain behaviours?

BertieBotts · 15/02/2015 23:32

Sorry for my overuse of girl rather than woman there, BTW. Bad habit.

BertieBotts · 15/02/2015 23:36

Possibly. I don't know. I suppose I find that easier to understand. Nobody likes to think they might have been coerced into something and didn't make a free choice so it's easier to be defensive. I find the defying of clear logic baffling, though. But then, I'm currently trying to find out if I have ADD and one of the things about ADD is apparently looking for all of the exceptions to every rule, including logic (which is probably the best description of my mind I have ever come across, as an aside) and somehow arriving at a more logical logic even though it's not as straightforward. Most things aren't straightforward. It seems obvious that they aren't. I don't know why people don't get this.